T'Pol's Un-Vulcan Like Behavior

[Silverbullet]

Depends on what kind of officer.

You are right Officers do have some command training but unless they are in a commmand position they really don't need it.

Lots Of NCO's use more command than some Officers.

Old joke. Lt, how do you build a bridge over a River.

answer, Sgt put up a bridge across that River.

A Cook, Officer, supply Officer will usuallly never have command responsibilities. they will supervise some troops but the would only be put in a comand siituation if all other officers
in their unit wre dead or incapacitated.

Unfortunagtely there are many officers who are entirely unfit for command. Also unfortunately they often wind up in command positions.

Just because t-Pol may have had some command training during her officer training program doesn't mean she ever used that. Trip always impressed me more when he was in command of Enterprise. He looked and acted one hell of a lot better than ARcher.

[WarpGirl]

I forfit, there's no point to it.

[Eian Flannagan]

I forfit, there's no point to it.

Well......there isn't any point to ANY of it but for the sake of debate and entertainment. It's the entire purpose of this thread and all the others. The caveat is that at least 50% of the people participating are going to disagree with you and offer up counter-arguments.

That's the point. None of this is meant to be anything more than entertainment. Once it ceases to be "fun" or "entertaining" then, yeah, it's time to quit.

[WarpGirl]

Well usually I do have fun, and then I don't know people start miscommunicating, then not-so-much. Anyway back to T'Pol I don't see how she could have not charged Archer with ethical violations and war crimes with Sim and the piracy that led to a stolen warp coil. Where was the priority of a Vulcan's respect for life?

[Distracted]

Apparently the thought never even occurred to the writers. Sigh. Again with the not thinking before the writing. Tsk. Tsk.

[WarpGirl]

They did it again when she asked why humans hadn't destroyed the Augment Embryos. Now I ride T'Pol a lot for some things but these incedents are the only ones that make me truly mad. They're not just screwing a character, they're screwing a culture that someone put a lot of time making. That's like adding a mustache to the Mona Lisa. WRONG!

[Aikiweezie]

Well usually I do have fun, and then I don't know people start miscommunicating, then not-so-much. Anyway back to T'Pol I don't see how she could have not charged Archer with ethical violations and war crimes with Sim and the piracy that led to a stolen warp coil. Where was the priority of a Vulcan's respect for life?

I'm not sure what I'd do about the Sim incident, but as far as stealing the warp coil - If I were in command, I'd do it in a heartbeat to save the millions of humans on Earth.

I got the impression that an unspoken part of the Xindi Mission was "What happens in the Expanse stays in the Expanse" and - "whatever it takes to save Earth." If an officer or crewman couldn't live with that then they should not be on the mission.

They HAD to find and destroy that weapon. T'Pol knew that.

[WarpGirl]

Oh sure that makes any people killed on that ship expendable. Got to save Earth, who cares if the aliens in our way have NOTHING to do with our war they're just there. Let's call that a heroic act and name every shool on Earth after the Captain that ordered it.

[Escriba]

So, you're basically saying that to respect the "You shall not steal" principle, you'd leave the entire planet perish. That's tough.

Look, as for legal consequences... none. Believe me. There is something called "necessity", it's a justification cause. It means that your action was necessary to prevent a greater harm ("the needs of the many" in Criminal Law version.) If you prove it, you'll have no legal consequences.

[Asso]

Well. Obviously the situation was artfully built in order to create a dilemma and also a conflict (Between Archer and T'Pol).
I didn't love too much this episode, exactly because of these things: I love action and adventure (and Romance, sure ), but I don't love unnecessary complications, made to increase tension.
Well, as always I'm speaking of me and for me.
Anyway, there's a thing about the conversation between T'Pol and Archer (when he discloses his plan to T'Pol) which takes me to make a reflexion: why does react T'Pol in that way? Trellium? Awareness of the state into which Trellium pushed her ? Or... awareness that the principles which led her life do not exist anymore, in the Expanse?
Damn Xindi!
Damn Humans.
DAMN TRIP!

Ah, Escriba, excuse me. You're right, evidently, but... we're speaking of Earth's laws, isn't it?
I don't know if they are valid elsewhere.

[Escriba]

They are valid for Earth people and people who serve in Starfleet. Except anything that could exist in an Intergalactic Treaty. And I don't see any except with the Vulcans. And Vulcans have the custom of "not interfering", so...

I'm afraid there would be no consequences.

For a practical example, the International Criminal Court should prosecute any individual for genocide, crimes against humanity or war crimes (among others), but they can't judge any North American military because USA didn't sign the treaty and isn't a member, since they think it's their right and jurisdiction.

[Asso]

Hey, Escriba, I was joking.
I'm perfectly aware that no one and no thing can condemn Enterprise's crew. And then... they salvaged also Vulcan, right?

[Escriba]

True, true, Soval said so. And if Soval says it, it's true

[WarpGirl]

So, you're basically saying that to respect the "You shall not steal" principle, you'd leave the entire planet perish. That's tough.

NO! Not at all, I have no problem with the stealing. Well in fiction anyway... I have a huge monumental problen with attacking an innocent people where there is an extreme risk of killing them just to get what you want. I have a problem that they took guns and were willing to kill innocent people. They might not have wanted too but they were willing too. If those people had been a threat, or tried to interfere in the mission, I'd say fine do what you need too. But they weren't. And honestly, with all the bad guys around there, they couldn't have waited a few more days to wait for someone who deserved it. The odds of more pirates finding 2 damaged ships near each other were really good. Sorry I think it's henious. And T'Pol should have been able to object and have it stand. Not wash out and retract her objections.

[pdsldl]

So, you're basically saying that to respect the "You shall not steal" principle, you'd leave the entire planet perish. That's tough.

NO! Not at all, I have no problem with the stealing. Well in fiction anyway... I have a huge monumental problen with attacking an innocent people where there is an extreme risk of killing them just to get what you want. I have a problem that they took guns and were willing to kill innocent people. They might not have wanted too but they were willing too. If those people had been a threat, or tried to interfere in the mission, I'd say fine do what you need too. But they weren't. And honestly, with all the bad guys around there, they couldn't have waited a few more days to wait for someone who deserved it. The odds of more pirates finding 2 damaged ships near each other were really good. Sorry I think it's henious. And T'Pol should have been able to object and have it stand. Not wash out and retract her objections.

The chances of another ship coming along was not known and Enterprise only had impulse engines so they were not going to be going anywhere fast. In wartime there are always moral issues but you do the best you can. I saw T'Pol's reaction to Archer as the TD making it impossible for her to handle her emotions. It was a sign of her addiction and the toll the TD was taking on her ability to suppress her emotions. She may have objected or she may have seen it as her duty as first officer to point out the risk to Archer if he continued to cross that line but what she did was overreact which only made him defensive and unable to discuss it rationally. He was going to do what he'd made up his mind to do and while I see what he did as wrong I also fully understand and agree with why he did it. I honestly believe the Vulcans did to. They have a philosophy they live by but that does no one any good if theyand the rest of the galaxy no longer exist. Risking the lives of those on that ship and Enterprise's crew was the cost of survival for billions of people. Don't have to like it but it's a reality even in the real world.