What

[Asso]

Strange.
I had already this kind of conversation in regard to other issues and I was rebuked because I was reasoning the way you do now.
The fact, WarpGirl, is that the blanket is short, and when you pull it toward a corner, you uncover the other corner.
Anyway about that, I am firm. You say there are things which are universal. I agree: that's mother's love.
Now... sarcastic tone: like the love T'Less showed to make T'Pol happy.
UNIVERSAL.
Yes.
Like a true mother.
Forgive me, but I'm a little tired, now. I run the risk to appear harsh, and this one is the last thing I want to sound.
Good night.
Tomorrow will be another day.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

But seriously, you also can't have an ongoing romance in a TV show that's not about marriage that isn't going to have some gratuitous angst. Otherwise, said romance will resolve too quickly, jump the shark, kill the suspense, lose the sizzle, and -- worst crime of all -- drop the ratings. And even the shows that ARE about marriage are going to have to introduce some angst from somewhere. Without conflict, what do you have? No drama.

Isn't that the catch-22 of all televised romances? Draw out the "will they, won't they" angst dance just to keep the drama and conflict going, only to find out it's starting to get ridiculous. Many in the audiences won't accept that on long-running shows and eventually get tired of it and stop caring. Jack/Sam, Mulder/Scully... how many seasons did they do this?

But on the other hand, make them a couple and then what do you do with them for the rest of the show's run to keep it interesting? Only lovey-dovey, kissy-kissy isn't very interesting for very long.

What I'd do in regards to TnT had ENT continued would be for them to be a couple (for, say, the remaining three seasons). But their couple-hood would mostly be in the background and not so "in your face". Oh, they'd still argue and bicker like many real couples do, and like they did before, but with a new dynamic. They'd still work together on projects and missions since they're established as doing that well together.

And to throw in a little drama into the mix (otherwise the drama on the show would be about the plot, the action and the events surrounding everyone, like gearing up for the Romulan War and stuff like that) we could be shown how they as a couple struggle with being from two different cultures and species. How do they cope with that both personally and in their relations with their respective home worlds? How does the Bond work?

So, scale back on the TnT drama and keep it more in the background. As a make-believe ENT producer I'd have to remember that it's ENT and not the TnT show. But I'd still keep TnT of course.

[Aikiweezie]

But seriously, you also can't have an ongoing romance in a TV show that's not about marriage that isn't going to have some gratuitous angst. Otherwise, said romance will resolve too quickly, jump the shark, kill the suspense, lose the sizzle, and -- worst crime of all -- drop the ratings. And even the shows that ARE about marriage are going to have to introduce some angst from somewhere. Without conflict, what do you have? No drama.

Isn't that the catch-22 of all televised romances? Draw out the "will they, won't they" angst dance just to keep the drama and conflict going, only to find out it's starting to get ridiculous. Many in the audiences won't accept that on long-running shows and eventually get tired of it and stop caring. Jack/Sam, Mulder/Scully... how many seasons did they do this?

But on the other hand, make them a couple and then what do you do with them for the rest of the show's run to keep it interesting? Only lovey-dovey, kissy-kissy isn't very interesting for very long.

What I'd do in regards to TnT had ENT continued would be for them to be a couple (for, say, the remaining three seasons). But their couple-hood would mostly be in the background and not so "in your face". Oh, they'd still argue and bicker like many real couples do, and like they did before, but with a new dynamic. They'd still work together on projects and missions since they're established as doing that well together.

And to throw in a little drama into the mix (otherwise the drama on the show would be about the plot, the action and the events surrounding everyone, like gearing up for the Romulan War and stuff like that) we could be shown how they as a couple struggle with being from two different cultures and species. How do they cope with that both personally and in their relations with their respective home worlds? How does the Bond work?

So, scale back on the TnT drama and keep it more in the background. As a make-believe ENT producer I'd have to remember that it's ENT and not the TnT show. But I'd still keep TnT of course.

I completely agree with you, Kevin. I think that was probably the plan.

[WarpGirl]

Strange.
I had already this kind of conversation in regard to other issues and I was rebuked because I was reasoning the way you do now.
The fact, WarpGirl, is that the blanket is short, and when you pull it toward a corner, you uncover the other corner.
Anyway about that, I am firm. You say there are things which are universal. I agree: that's mother's love.
Now... sarcastic tone: like the love T'Less showed to make T'Pol happy.
UNIVERSAL.
Yes.
Like a true mother.
Forgive me, but I'm a little tired, now. I run the risk to appear harsh, and this one is the last thing I want to sound.
Good night.
Tomorrow will be another day.

I don't think you were ever rebuked. I think the problem is we disagree over what we consider to be universal values. And no just because a mother loves their child doesn't mean they'd do ANYTHING to make their child happy. Crossing the street alone may make a child happy, drinking under age may make a child happy, staying out til the early hours of the morning may make a child happy, running off with a dangerous boy may make a child happy... What parent who can claim to LOVE their child supports this type of behavior from their child, no matter how old they are? Would you stand by and just watch as your daughter wrecks her life? I don't think so!!!!!

T'Les knows NOTHING about Trip. She doesn't know if he's a good man. Whether he loves and respects her daughter or if he's using her as a novelty. She doesn't know if he'll be supportive of her heritage. She's just supposed to say "OK honey forget Koss, Trip makes you happy" I DON'T THINK SO! She waited until she had concrete evidence that Trip was worthy. I don't see how that makes her a bad mother, or a bad person.

[Aquarius]

Well I think you both may be overrecating just a teeny tiny bit. It isn't as if it should be all that big of a shock, Vulcan culture doesn't place a high priority on individual desires... Home illustrated a huge difference between two cultures, differences that TnT have to address if they have a snowball's chance in H-E-double hockey-stickes, of making a life together. I LIKE that.

I agree, and would like to add that Koss didn't exactly come from "out of nowhere." It was established that she was betrothed. It was established that she pissed his family off by calling off the wedding. There was NO direct evidence that T'Pol was completely off the hook after this. In a society where your only way out of a marriage is to call a combat to the death, you can best believe Koss and his family would have certain rights in this matter, and furthermore they may choose to exercise those rights at some point. So yeah, while many of us do not like Koss and would much rather see T'Pol with Trip, this notion didn't exactly come out of somebody's ass, either. It was an entirely realistic and plausible possibility the entire time.

[Silverbullet]

T-Pol brought Trip to Vulcan. T-Les herself told Trip that she sensed that there was something between him and her daughter.

T-Les should have trusted her Daughter a bit. T-Pol told her that Trip was a crewmate and that they had served on enterprise together for four years. T-Les should have realized that T-Pol knew Trip very well. If daughter brings male home to meet her Mother should realize that there is someting serious going on. He is a HUMAN. so if t-Pol is obviously serious about this guy and he is adifferent species T-Pol in effect is saying to T-Les this is the guy that I want to spend my life with.

If t-Les is a good mother she wants to protect her daughter but she should know that she has to respect her aughters wishes too. A parent sometimes has to step aside and let a child make their own mistakes. Objecting can often drive a child to hang on tighter.

I am not wild about the guy my Daughter has but if I say someting she will probably become estranged from me. I don't want to lose my daughter so Ikeep my mouth shut and hope.

T-Les knows that t-Pol doesn't want Koss she has made that plain.

so why should t-Les try to push t-Pol who has reached her majority and is an adult on her own into a marriage with aman she doesn't care for and doesn't want. for Tradition? Because t-Les has decided it would be better for T-Pol to marry a nice Vulcan lad and settle down on Vulcan. T-Les is not thinking of t-Pol then but of her own wants.

T-Pol may be mom's little girl in the mind of t-Les but she is actualy a grown adult woman capable of making her own choices.

Cetainly t-Les can realize that t-Pol has not arrived at her decision about Trip all of a sudden. That it has taken time. a couple years at least to come to that place.

I still wonder why, in private, t-Pol simply does not tell T-Les that she and Trip have mated.
That fact alone should make T-Les stop and think that t-Pol has made an irrevocable choice.

[Aquarius]

Silverbullet, you are applying Human Western sensibilities to a culture that doesn't share them. T'Pol's marriage was pre-arranged at childhood. Culturally, "trusting" your kid to pick someone isn't an option, especially if that someone is an offworlder from a society your people don't generally trust.

Yes, I agree forcing T'Pol to go through with it was a bitch move...but that's because I'm a human American, with all the values and sensibilities that go along with that. If you could ask your Average Vulcan On The Street about the situation, they'd likely side with Koss's family and T'Les, because that's culturally normal for them.

[WarpGirl]

A few things you have to remember are...

A. T'Les is a widow, and T'Pol is her ONLY child, that automatically makes a mother more protective of her child.

B. Trip is human and the general Vulcan opinion about humans, (including radicals) is that they are DANGEROUS.

C. T'Pol may be an adult, BUT she's 66 Vulcan years, physically making her about 29 human years, to a Vulcan she's still a baby in certain ways. Heck you're 74 I'm 25 to you I'm a kid. And rightly so. How much worse can it be when you can live past 200?

D. While you might not be able to force you child to do what you want, (and I don't think T'Les forced T'Pol the SITUATION did) you have a right and a responsibility to let your child know you're concerned for them.

I don't see wanting to protect your child from something and someone you have NO experience with as being a **tch, and I AM an American young woman born after women's liberation.

[Aquarius]

WarpGirl--I called it a bitch move because there seemed to be obvious manipulation in the situation, not because she was trying to "protect" T'Pol from that human dirtbag she brought home. Koss basically extorted T'Pol into the marriage--"if you marry me, I'll get your mother's position restored because I'm SUCH a nice guy like that"--and it seemed apparent to me that T'Les had to be in on it at least to a point, because how else would Koss have known T'Pol was coming home, if T'Les didn't mention it to his family or someone connected to it?

[WarpGirl]

Yes Aquarius I know there was more too it then that, you have a possible Syrranite connection, or a VHC conspiracy to consider. Or it could just be that Koss and his family were jerks. ANYWAY here is an explanation for the letter. Ever think T'Les might have been pressured too?

How about the simple fact Koss' daddy was on the VHC, and the VHC KNOWS where Enterprise is and where it's going. So Enterprise returns to Earth T'Pol books passage on a VULCAN transport, and Daddy finds out. He tells Koss to go get her, and Koss sends a letter to T'Les so she can intercede on his behalf. T'Les knows Koss, she knows she can trust Koss. She doesn't know Trip, T'Pol NEVER mentioned him, not once! Why should she trust her only child to a stranger and a human? Tell me would you want your daughter to marry a man you had never seen before in your life? I'd kill my daughter if I had one.

[Alelou]

I still wonder why, in private, t-Pol simply does not tell T-Les that she and Trip have mated.
That fact alone should make T-Les stop and think that t-Pol has made an irrevocable choice.

This is a reasonable question, but wouldn't this be T'Pol's failing, not T'Les's? But sometimes, when certain things in a society truly Are Not Spoken Of, even children and parents won't discuss them.

Personally I like to think that T'Pol actually DID tell Koss's family she was involved with Trip, and they STILL wanted the marriage -- for the political reasons. (I also imagine that this wouldn't have been terribly easy on Koss.) Purely strategic marriages are hardly something alien -- they have been practiced on Earth for many, many generations.

But anyway, that's the joy of this stuff, we can fill in the blanks any way we want.

[Alelou]

the blanket is short, and when you pull it toward a corner, you uncover the other corner.

Is this a saying in Italian? It's wonderful! (How does it go in Italian?)

[WarpGirl]

You're still a Goddess Alelou. However, I'd like to put this theory out there... What if T'Pol DID tell T'Les she and Trip had mated? Would it have mattered? I mean obviously T'Pol had no clue she could bond with a human. Mom could have asked, "Are you bonded to him?" T'Pol could truthfully say "No" because there was no evidence of one. No bond, it doesn't count. Of course it wouldn't do any good for her reputation but that's destroyed anyway. There was no need to tell Koss, she wasn't going to live with him anyway.

[Alelou]

This assumes Vulcans ever actually talk about bonds, but based on T'Pol's total uncertainty about the one she has, I'd guess it's another one of those Things Not Spoken Of. But no, you're right, it might have made no difference to T'Les. It could have been one of those, "Okay dear, so you had a little youthful indiscretion. Now you have to straighten up and fly right."

Hey, I'm honestly not too comfortable with the goddess thing. It's so not true it's almost cruel...

[WarpGirl]

It was just a compliment. Sorry. I didn't mean to be cruel. As for never speaking about a bond, well... It would be a valid question to ask if your daughter just told you she slept with a man not her husband when your entire sexual identity is supposed to be confined to a husband of an arranged marriage. Mitigating circumstances.