Refusing to Fight?

[justTripn]

Right. I was getting the vibe that this man was announcing he wanted a divorce becuase he wasn't the type to simplly go out and cheat while married, and when the woman gave him options for getting a divorce but he didn't exactly follow up on them, that meant he still didn't have licence to sleeping around.

[Aquarius]

Having come out of a 15+ year relationship that just ended...

This was a very difficult article to read, not just about someone else's pain, but also in reliving personal aches as one reads, realizing that you aren't loved any more, probably weren't for a long time, and even if you were, it obviously isn't enough.

Yeah, human nature is to rage and scream and cry and beg and hit below the belt and accuse and defend. But what did that really get me? Two things: jack, and sh*t.

In making my own mistakes with relationships--this one in particular--I have to say that the "right" thing is often the hardest thing to do. Perhaps if I'd employed her strategy over the years I might've had a much different outcome. Too late to tell now, but I can say this: succumbing to my own insecurities, frustrations, rage, whatever--well none of that helped, now did it?

And I admit I'm not as strong as all that, not when it strikes this close to home. I applaud her for doing the right thing, the smart thing, while the rest of us wait for him to take a shower so we can go through his text messages and the cell bill and the credit card bills and the tears and all the other crap.

If a woman (or man, for that matter) is of sufficiently strong character, it's totally doable...and really, from where I sit, the only way to save something if it's truly worth saving. I mean, if it can't be saved even after all that, then you've got your answer, he needs to go any way. Me? I'm too much of an ass to handle it with that much patience and maturity.

Now, in terms of applying this to TnT, I took this (I think) totally different than WarpGirl did. I see lots of bumpy road ahead for them, just by nature of who and what they are. No, it may not manifest itself as "I don't love you any more," but as I read the article, it struck me as a very T'Pol-ish way of handling such a difficult situation, once she'd gained a little wisdom and experience of living with an intractable human.

And as an aside, sci-fi elements or not, at the core of it all must be compelling human (or Vulcan) drama. The starships, the phasers, the uniforms, those are all just window dressing and realistically should have little to no effect on what the story is actually about. You know you've got a good story if you don't have to rely on that stuff to tell it.

And everything Dis said about needing to be able to make yourself happy? Absolutely true. That's why I stopped going out with the guy who got interested in me at Media West this past May. I was willing to date him so long as things weren't taken too seriously because I was fresh (and I mean FRESH--as in a week) out of this long relationship He lived three-four hours away so I thought cool, I DON'T have to see him all the time, so I don't have to be Clingy Rebound Girl. I told him to keep his expectations of me realistic. I just wanted to have fun, get to know each other. He appeared agreeable to that at first.

Appearances can be deceiving.

Within a week he was bugging me to move closer to him. It also became apparent he was still hung up on his ex-wife, to the point of obsession. He turned out to be a VERY unhealthy individual who just uses the woman he's with to get over the last one...so he never really gets over anything, because his happiness is absolutely dependent on who he's with. He'd been divorced for three years; I was only weeks out of my long-term relationship and I was healthier and more well-adjusted than he was--largely because I was refusing to be a complete mess, but still. He's in his late 40s but emotionally he's like FOURTEEN when it comes to relationships because he refuses to develop the self-assurance that comes with being happy regardless of who you're with, or if you're even with anyone at all. I swear he had us married in his head within that first week.

Me? Well, had I not been fresh off the rebound, I might've ended things a little more quickly than I did, but as it was, it only lasted four weeks and three "dates" before I said buh-bye. I refuse to jump out of one dysfunction and straight into another. I'm going back to school and I'm making some changes, and if anyone wants to come along for the ride, that's cool, but they need to remember it's my ride, because that's how it has to be right now while I'm figuring out what makes me happy.

Sorry. File this one under O for "overshare" if you want to.

(Out of curiosity, I'm wondering if I reacted the way Alelou predicted I would? )

[Alelou]

LOL. By defending the possibility that Trip or T'Pol might run into difficulties, then yes ... you did.

It's too late for me to digest all the rest of that except to say I'm sorry. It's obviously very painful.

[Aquarius]

Thanks. I didn't mean to tell all of that to get sympathy. Just...going what I've gone through recently, the article struck a chord on a lot of levels. On the one hand I'm relating to what she went through because of having been in a long-term relationship that crashed and burned...or more accurately fell over and whimpered.

And on the other hand there was this other guy I dated, who will NEVER be happy, because he just doesn't "get" it.

So I guess what I'm just saying is that this is all very timely for me.

[WarpGirl]

Now, in terms of applying this to TnT, I took this (I think) totally different than WarpGirl did. I see lots of bumpy road ahead for them, just by nature of who and what they are. No, it may not manifest itself as "I don't love you any more," but as I read the article, it struck me as a very T'Pol-ish way of handling such a difficult situation, once she'd gained a little wisdom and experience of living with an intractable human.

Just for the record Aquarius just because I don't think Trip would wake up one morning and say "I don't love you anymore and I don't think I ever did" doesn't mean I think their relationship is smooth sailing as the result of a psychic connection. But T'Pol never behaved like that husband did in the artical, deliberately berating him, as that woman said her husbad did. Appearently the man in question was cruel on purpose. T'Pol never was.

Like I said I would find it really hard to conclude anything concrete from the artical as something healthy. Now is it a good stratagy as a start for dealing with such an issue? Sure. But it's hardly something you can take and apply in a healthy way by itself. Also while the extreme of digging through a partner's e-mails, text messages, voice mail, ect is not healthy; Bottling emotions and refusing to communicate at all is just asking for trouble. I don't believe in either extreme.

[Alelou]

I don't see T'Pol ever intentionally berating Trip -- she's more the "closing down" type. But judging from the way Trip lashed out at Malcolm when his sister died, he's quite capable of doing a little irrational projection. We already see him lashing out hurtfully at T'Pol at times, even though it's completely understandable why he would do that. So I could see him reaching a point in a long-term relationship with her where he pulls something similar to this, though I can't imagine he'd just announce he doesn't love her anymore. But the whole point of that article isn't that the guy REALLY doesn't love his wife anymore, it's that this was his f'd-up way of processing his own little crisis.

Could be worse. Some husbands in this situation kill the family and themselves. And of course, much more commonly, they simply fall for someone else.

There is also an element here, though, that reminds me of that episode of Seinfeld where George's girlfriend won't allow him to break up with her. LOL.

[Aquarius]

Now, in terms of applying this to TnT, I took this (I think) totally different than WarpGirl did. I see lots of bumpy road ahead for them, just by nature of who and what they are. No, it may not manifest itself as "I don't love you any more," but as I read the article, it struck me as a very T'Pol-ish way of handling such a difficult situation, once she'd gained a little wisdom and experience of living with an intractable human.

Just for the record Aquarius just because I don't think Trip would wake up one morning and say "I don't love you anymore and I don't think I ever did" doesn't mean I think their relationship is smooth sailing as the result of a psychic connection. But T'Pol never behaved like that husband did in the artical, deliberately berating him, as that woman said her husbad did. Appearently the man in question was cruel on purpose. T'Pol never was.

Like I said I would find it really hard to conclude anything concrete from the artical as something healthy. Now is it a good stratagy as a start for dealing with such an issue? Sure. But it's hardly something you can take and apply in a healthy way by itself. Also while the extreme of digging through a partner's e-mails, text messages, voice mail, ect is not healthy; Bottling emotions and refusing to communicate at all is just asking for trouble. I don't believe in either extreme.

I'm not sure why you're equating T'Pol to the husband in the article. Trip is much more likely to go through that "midlife crisis" thing. I related T'Pol to the wife in the article because I believed that's how a cool, logical, emotionally-attached-to-her-husband Vulcan who wants to save her marriage might handle it, so you've completely lost me.

Also, I wouldn't say that the woman in the article bottled her emotions. She mentioned her friends' reactions to the situation, so it's a pretty reasonable assumption she was talking to someone through it all. The point here isn't that she was repressing--which, yes, is unhealthy--it's that she was choosing her battles and recognizing that HE had the problem, not her, so she was refusing to let him make it about her. She was also refusing to exacerbate the situation by feeding into it with all the emotional flying-off-the-handle, and most importantly, trying to get through the situation with a little dignity, which is something we often forget about when emotions run high as our relationships come to an end. She never denied that she had these emotions, she simply wasn't going to let her husband see it. Or her kids for that matter, because there was no reason for them to suffer because their dad had to "find himself" or whatever.

So I'm not sure how she can be labeled "unhealthy" for recognizing a problem and reacting appropriately to it in a manner that's conducive to an actual solution rather than more drama. She still felt all the things she's "supposed" to feel, but face it, there are all kinds of times in every day life where what we let another person see and what's really going on inside our heads are two totally different things. I encounter this a lot working with the public, even, through doing hair and the years before that in retail management. Once or twice I've had a customer tick me off so bad I wanted to haul off and slap them they were so far out of line, but you have to keep a cool head and be smart about the situation, otherwise you'll never maintain/regain control of it, the other person will never calm down, and you'll never arrive at a solution. Basically all this woman did was take what they taught us in management training (or in her case, parenting) and apply it to her marriage. Unhealthy? Not necessarily.

[justTripn]

I refuse to jump out of one dysfunction and straight into another. I'm going back to school and I'm making some changes, and if anyone wants to come along for the ride, that's cool, but they need to remember it's my ride, because that's how it has to be right now while I'm figuring out what makes me happy.

I just want to say: Good for you!

[Aquarius]

Thanks, jT. It's hard...and it's scary. Despite my commitment to "get it right" this time and start living up to my potential, I'm frightened more often than not.

[Aikiweezie]

Ugh. Been there done that. Hard article to read. Except I didn't quite react the way the wife in the article did, but both times he came back on his own. And it was after 6 and 8 years of marriage instead of 20, which we will hit in October. I swear if it happens again, I will just tell him to go......and stay gone. He's already been informed by me that he is not allowed to have a mid-life crisis because he had two already. I probably feel this way because I'm 44 and have lived life, and gained a ton more self respect and confidence. Love has nothing to do with it if you loose yourself in you attempt to keep the man. Just my jaded opinion.

If it worked for the woman in the article, that's great. We all need to figure out what's right for us. I won't criticize beause I've been criticized about my decisions myself.

No, I don't see Trip & T'Pol going through something quite like that. Mucho misunderstandings, yeah, Trip having a mid-life crisis, no. He matured a lot while on Enterprise and had previously been through a lot of relationship stuff, so I don't see it.

[WarpGirl]

I know it's a dying thing but I'd like to hope that there are men out there that believe in til death do us part, and for better or worse. As soon as you make that optional I think the odds of failing SPIKE! Trip seems to have traditional values I don't think he sees marriage as a choice of til death do us part. Besides I didn't read anything that said the wife was communicating with her husband about his feelings or his behavior. If TnT were actually married I can't see T'Pol behaving that way.

[Bether6074]

I'm going to write about this before reading any comments. I recently finished a course of therapy that has really fundamentally altered my perspective on life. I had a very close relationship with my therapist and still miss him to this day.

At some point in time in our lives, we come to realize that a chapter has turned. We as humans become aware of our own mortality. Hairs are gray. Children are growing up before our eyes. What is our purpose on this earth? Have we met our potential? Have we loved deeply enough? What is most important? What are our motivations? For me, in therapy, the relationship taught me so much. By examining that relationship and understanding how I love and what is me...the whole picture began to become clearer to me. Life is now. We can't relive or become "stuck" in the past. Everything that we are has a deeper meaning...a deeper motivation...

Anyhow, as I grew to care for my therapist, I began to understand that the love in me was my own. It was my potential. It was my strength. Someone else can offer support, guidance, comfort and love, but in the end your own happiness comes from within. You can't expect a spouse to "provide" happiness for you. It's your love, it's your caring, it's your gift to give and if not to give, then there is nothing to receive. So instead of wanting for more and needing more, I began to see what I had and how I had the ability to make any change that I needed for my own serenity. In the end we answer to ourselves and we are ultimately responsible for our own contentment and love. I'm empowered now by my own inner strength. And I'm empowered now in knowing I have it. And I still have a sappy inner voice...

In saying all of that, I wouldn't recommend doing what this woman did. I think open discussion and emotional honestly within the relationship would have been best. But it sounds as if he was acting out a fear of death to me.

I suspect we're missing a substantial part of the puzzle. The woman sounds like she's had therapy, or at least like she's been spending a hell of a lot of time in the self-help section of the bookstore. She's even quoting psychological child-rearing theories in the article. It's entirely possible that it was the changes she underwent after therapy or after absorbing all that psychology that prompted him to decide he didn't love her anymore.

I also wanted to respond to this... now that I've read through the thread. This is something that does happen sometimes after one spouse runs a course of therapy. The relationship equilbrium is altered, but then sometimes that balance has ultimately been unhealthy for the relationship in the long term. Sometimes you adjust in ways just to "make things work", but this behavior ends up being self defeating.

I suppose I sound like I've been through the "self-help" sections of the bookstore, lol, but it really has changed my life for the better. I feel like a different person.

[WarpGirl]

My issue is that this woman is advocating a passive approach to her marriage. She's not objecting to nights when her husbad does not come home. She doesn't try to find out if he is comitting adultry which could have SEVERE health problems in store for her, even death. A friend of mine got HIV from a cheating husband she and a baby concieved BEFORE she knew about it were infected and they DIED! Granted there are better meds now and precautions that can be taken but it is a HUGE mistake. Also what kind of message is she sending to her children? That this is normal, healthy, acceptable behavior? NOT GOOD! Most of all she is not communicating with her husband. She's letting him berate and abuse her emotionally and mentally. I feel sorry for those kids. I'm not saying she should have left, far from it. But she should have protected herself and her children.

I can't see T'Pol doing this if Trip had a mid-life crises.

[Bether6074]

What happened to your friend is very sad. I'm sorry to hear about that.

You're right in that honesty really is essential to a successful relationship. Her behavior does seem avoidant in its own way. I did understand the working theme behind her motivations, though, which I believe to be very true. (Your own personal happiness comes from within) On the other hand, one just can't pretend problems don't exist and just blindly hope they will magically disappear. She was lucky in that it seems he was questioning himself and acting out on a fear of not reaching his life potential. Or so it would seem being that he went back to her.

[WarpGirl]

Thank you, for saying that. Yes it was a hard thing growing up with but I find it helped me grow up in ways I can be proud of. Anyway I have also gone to Counseling for years and benifited enormously, although it was hell trying to find the right person. The priciples for a healthy relationship with anyone are pretty standard, and while this woman seems to be practicing a very important one; Controling her OWN behavior, it seems to me she was disregarding all the other principles. Which is not a balanced or healthy reaction.