Refusing to Fight?

[Aquarius]

I don't agree with the notion that this woman was "ignoring" the problem and magically expecting it to disappear. What she is saying is that whatever was going on, he was going to have to work it out for himself. You can't make people do anything, after all. She essentially said "You obviously need some space, so I'm going to give it to you." And she went on with her life, the same as she'd have to if her husband had actually left. She sounds to me like she was determined not to be dragged down by his behavior, rather than simply being "passive."

And seriously? How are you supposed to accomplish "honest communication" with someone who has already made up their mind not to listen to you? Regardless of what you're saying, all they're going to "hear" is nagging or grovelling or ranting or some combination thereof, and be more likely to tune you out. Having a receptive audience is kind of key to that "communication" thingy.

ETA:

At some point in time in our lives, we come to realize that a chapter has turned.

Many of us also come to a point in our lives, when we're older, when it's less about the drama. Things we'd have freaked out about in our early 20s don't phase us as much when we're staring down 40. Sometimes the time for begging, pleading, raging, and cajoling has simply passed. Sometimes we realize that if this is what's necessary to keep him here, then he's not worth keeping here. If he can arrive at the "right" answer on his own, all the better. I mean, I'd want my man to come back because he wanted to, not because I guilted him into it. The latter tends to build resentment and contempt more than it actually helps anything.

Regardless of your views about marriage and relationships, some situations are just not worth hanging on to. At some point you and your self-respect have to have a Come To Jesus Meeting and you have to trust the universe to unfold the way it's supposed to. I wish I'd had that wisdom 15-20 years ago. I'd be in a much different place now. Whether that's good, bad, or indifferent, I have no way of knowing...I just know that hindsight is 20/20 and it would just have been different.

[WarpGirl]

<sigh> Well taking into consideration that the artical is edited and obviously doesn't tell the whole story, and even then it's one person's point of view... I still say that taking verbal and emotional abuse, and possibly allowing a man who is being unfaithful free reign by saying "IT'S HIS PROBLEM NOT MINE" is not the best course of action. While I admire this woman for posessing a tremendous amount of determination, self-control, and commitment to her marriage, I can't help but wonder the possible damage that could be caused by her actions. For example how will this effect her children? A son might learn that if ever he "Has problems" his father's way of handling it is acceptable which it isn't. It is forgivable but NOT acceptable. A daughter might think, as long as a man hasn't physically hurt her that she should put up with anything else without reacting in any way. Also a dangerous lesson to teach.

Also it isn't only this man's problem, it's also the woman's problem, and her children's problem. While you are right that she can't control her husband's behavior or force him into honest communication, by just going on with her life she isn't being proactive. She isn't protecting her children, and in all honesty just throwing up her hands forcing her husband to deal with his demons alone she risks creating feelings of abandonment emotionally in him.

[Aquarius]

Actually it's being VERY proactive. And it's being VERY protective of her children. Or would it be better for them somehow to hear all the fighting and screaming and crying and to feel all the instability and insecurity that would come along with that? Especially if small children were involved, who have a tendency to believe these sorts of things are their fault?

And how is a woman creating feelings of abandonment in a husband who has claimed he does not even want her? Sorry, but I don't buy that, and if he does end up feeling "abandoned," then he should've thought before he opened his big fat mouth and said something like "I don't love you". Trust me, that specific issue is a particularly raw wound with me right now, so if the husband in question behaved this way and later claimed to feel "abandoned" by me, I'd have to tell him to kiss my fat posterior.

[WarpGirl]

OK I am not advocating that this woman have a breakdown and start screaming, fighting, and generally causing "drama" as I said before I ADMIRE her self-control, and her commitment to controling her REACTIONS to her husband. BUT that doesn't mean I agree with her ACTIONS. Also like I said we know NOTHING of what her husband was thinking or feeling. There are TWO sides to every story. I'm sorry you're hurting so badly right now truly I am, but maybe these wonds you're dealing with are making you respond in a way where you only see a small part of what others are saying.

[Aquarius]

Trust me, I've been dealing with nothing BUT the "bigger picture."

The "small part of what others are saying" that I'm seeing is people saying that she handled it wrong, or that she did something unhealthy, seemingly based on the generally accepted notion that it isn't what "most people" do. Heck, *I* didn't do it, either, you know? But I'm not here for cheap therapy or for anyone to say "poor baby"; I'm here to challenge the notion that this was "wrong" or "unhealthy", based on the experience of doing what "most people do" (mine as well as others) and having it prove rather unproductive, or worse, it exacerbated the situation. I'm also challenging that certain things are being ascribed to the author that aren't necessarily there, like the notion that she's "bottling everything up" or "ignoring the problem so it'll magically go away" or that she's "taking" his verbal abuse. Trust me, letting things roll off your back and "taking" them are two different things. In the former, you know their behavior is wrong but you're not taking it personally, not letting it bother you. In the latter, you take it to heart and allow it to destroy you. This does not sound like a woman who was letting her husband destroy her. Quite the opposite; she chose this approach because she was fighting for her emotional survival.

Yes, it's a new and unconventional way of approaching this kind of problem, but as I said before, we do it all the time any way--the face we show the world and what's really going on in our minds are often two completely different things. We don't even realize we're doing it sometimes--we say "fine" when people ask "how are you?", even though things most definitely are not fine.

I'm just saying that as long as we recognize that and use it to our advantage, what's the problem?

[WarpGirl]

OK I think the basic problem we're having is that by saying I don't agree with the way she handled things, you believe that I believe she had to handle it in the way "normal people" would. NO! First of all I don't ascribe to the idea that there is any such thing as a normal person. Also I don't think that she should have an emotional meltdown and kick her husband to the curb. All I'm saying is that I think that parts of her stratagy are inherently unhealthy. Other parts I think are extremely healthy. Like I said the only information we have is this one artical. And that is hardly enough to say whether this woman handled her situation correctly or not. It certainly isn't enough to say this is how all people with relationship crises should behave. Really there are not right or wrong answers here, but there are a lot of good points, and A LOT of mental health red flags.

[Bether6074]

I think what naturally happens with a story like this is that we interject ourselves into it. As outsiders to this situation we really can't accurately step into the middle of her response and judge it as unhealthy. Obviously, she knew herself and her husband well enough to make the most beneficial choice for both of them. And it worked, so in her particular case, it seems it was right for her. I was probably thinking in reference to my own relationship with my husband and knowing that this method would not have been successful with him had the same thing happened to me. I still believe in the open line of communication with one's spouse, though. I would think that eventually she would want to discuss his motivations and reasons why he said and did what he did. But, again, that is for her to decide.

For myself personally during the past several years was only when I came to the "page turning" realization and I'm already past 40. Aquarius, I can definitely hear your anger and I agree that some situations aren't worth hanging onto. Sometimes letting go might be the right approach. You sound determined and strong to me and I have no doubt those strengths have worked to your advantage in life.

[Eian Flannagan]

Ok, I volunteer as the first man to respond to Alelou's question.

First, I thought that article was awesome. Second, I actually can picture such a scenario several years deep into a TnT relationship. Here's how I think this would work:

Obviously, *the_abomination* never happened, the relationship progresses from "Terra Prime." Say, for the sake of argument, their relationship encounters pitfalls similar to Elessar's YMAM II + with regards to wartime separation, etc. It's very realistic that Trip could become disenchanted with many aspects of his life: his service to Starfleet, his relationship with T'Pol, etc. He and T'Pol grow apart a little bit. He grows more disenchanted.

Next thing you know, Trip and T'Pol have reached a place in their relationship where stagnation has set in. I can easily see Trip throwing up his hands and saying, "F*** it. I'm done. I'm not getting what I need from you." A man under significant stress (as I imagine active wartime duty would entail) is, more often than not, less likely or willing to want to work at something as unwieldy as a "marriage." Especially one that takes as much effort as an interspecies one must. Is it right? No. Is it realistic? You betcha.

A logical response from T'Pol would then be to realize the problem really is Trip's. It would also be incredibly logical to realize there isn't any way she can actually help him because those are his feelings. I can totally see her saying, "We are bonded. Leave if you must, I will be here when you return." From a Vulcan standpoint, there is little else she can do, and she would act accordingly.

Trip takes off for some separation from all that's weighing him down, realizes his relationship with T'Pol isn't his problem. Goes back, ready to again take up the effort. Life resumes...

Aye. I can totally see it.

[WarpGirl]

Sure I can see that happening in that situation. But just supposedly hapily married for decades raising a healthy family. NO WAY! Not Trip.

[Alelou]

Ok, I volunteer as the first man to respond to Alelou's question.

Och, you're a brave man!

I still think a Trip who suddenly had to cope with a major blow to his own self-esteem could unconsciously take it out on the people he loves most. Look at how he responded to T'Pol when she asked if he was leaving because of her. When he's well and truly miserable, Trip's instinct is to push others away or to run away himself. And frankly, I don't think that irrational response to pain is all that uncommon in Humans in general.

[Eian Flannagan]

Sure I can see that happening in that situation. But just supposedly hapily married for decades raising a healthy family. NO WAY! Not Trip.

Well, "happily married for decades" doesn't exactly mean a man can't reach a place of stagnation in his marriage where he would become disillusioned and allow outside influences (ie. the husband from the article and his inability to provide for his family, etc) to drive him from it.

It can happen. It does happen. Daily.

So..."yes way. Yes Trip." Why would he be exempt? Is he possessed of a superpower that would prevent him from succumbing to those pesky mortal feelings of inferiority, doubt, disillusionment? No, he's not. Ergo, it could happen. Even after those so-called decades of wedded "bliss."

[Bether6074]

Again, I'd have to go with my belief that much of this behavior during mid-life often has to do with finding oneself...perhaps doubting the life chosen and seeking more existential reasons for being or one's life purpose. Maybe this discovery will lead back to a better appreciation of what one already has or maybe it will lead down a different path of discovery. And I have no doubt that sometimes mistakes can be made during these times of questioning. Either way, I don't think that anyone could ever be immune from the potential for this happening. It's becoming aware of one's mortality. We're all human and we all die eventually. I think also maybe there are times when we all wonder if we've made the right choices. It doesn't mean that we haven't, just that we wonder. Just my opinion, of course. I don't think Trip would be immune to questioning either...fictional character or not, but that doesn't mean in this fantasy world it would have happened in the same way as it did here in reality. It might happen in a way that would be more true to Trip and who he is as a fictional character.

[WarpGirl]

No Trip doesn't have magical super powers and is just as human as the next married guy. But even though mid-life crises happen I don't see him taking those actions because of one thing, VALUES! A man who values the sancitity of marriage and family would find other ways of dealing with their unhappiness. As the artical pointed out quite forcefully A person CONTROLS their own ACTIONS. I'm not saying Trip would never have those feelings. I am not an idiot or hopelessly naieve. But I don't believe Trip would take those actions after decades of a loving marriage just because of a mid-life crises. If you remember in the begining of the artical the woman had felt her marriage was loving and fullfilling there were no obvious conflicts. If TnT's marraige followed that, I can't see Trip acting the way that husband did. Feel the way that husband did? YES!!!!!!! Act that way NO!!!!!!

[Eian Flannagan]

No Trip doesn't have magical super powers and is just as human as the next married guy. But even though mid-life crises happen I don't see him taking those actions because of one thing, VALUES! A man who values the sancitity of marriage and family would find other ways of dealing with their unhappiness.

You can value the sanctity of marriage and still have a meltdown. You're assuming a world of absolutes. With regards to Trip, I guess in your fiction he wouldn't. Groovy. Those are your beliefs, so have at it.

If you remember in the begining of the artical the woman had felt her marriage was loving and fullfilling there were no obvious conflicts. If TnT's marraige followed that, I can't see Trip acting the way that husband did. Feel the way that husband did? YES!!!!!!! Act that way NO!!!!!!

I do remember the article. In fact, I'll even quote it:

Let me be clear: I’m not saying my husband was throwing a child’s tantrum. No. He was in the grip of something else — a profound and far more troubling meltdown that comes not in childhood but in midlife, when we perceive that our personal trajectory is no longer arcing reliably upward as it once did.

Aye, this is the same dude she's talking about having the "loving and fulfilling marriage with no obvious conflicts." The two are not mutually exclusive. And where does it say the man doesn't have VALUES?!? It's preposterous to assume he doesn't just because he's having a mid-life crisis. A man can do the wrong thing and still have values. To assume otherwise is to live a highly regimented life born of absolutes. And that's simply unrealistic.

But as these are fictional characters, and once we enter the realm of post-canon, we can apply whatever paint we want to the canvas that is the characters' standards. I just choose to use more colors...


We're different like that. And that is OK.

[WarpGirl]

I never said that the poor man didn't have any values. In fact I feel very sorry for him, I said before many times that the artical only shows part of a situation. You can't make any hard and fast assumptions on it. But it's a proven fact that if you don't give yourself an option to back out of a marriage, than things like mid-life crises are LESS likely to break one up. It seems to me that Trip is one of those people who if married would NOT give himself the option to back out. That's what I saw in the series, if you saw an episode that contradicts that let me know please.