Major Rant : Angst

[Asso]

...PS: Asso doesn't enter in the cathegory because some of his stories aren't fluff at all! Yes, my Italian friend, I'm talking about you

That's for sure! They are substantial and absolutely RU, my dear angst-driving Basque friend!

[bluetiger]

Damn Alelou, there goes my story, Enterprise hosts the Queen's Birthday Ball.

[WarpGirl]

Hey Kotik! WOW! And I thought Silverbullet and ASSO hated angst. Personally, I think Dinah is quite simply the best there is at truly balancing angst and happiness. For me, it's simple... Life is full of Joy and Pain you can't get around it. In any century in any type of society you are going to have joy and pain during life. What I absolutely CANNOT STAND is stories where T'Pol is just a WITCH. And yeah I hate it so much that sometimes I find it best not to review. But I equally CANNOT STAND stories that are so sugery and sweet, and there is nary a problem ever just because two people adore each other. I do not need to have TnT having relationship problems, and I think it's OVERDONE. But I DO need some sort of conflict in the plot, because otherwise I'm rolling my eyes thinking "Yeah what reality is this?" That's why I can't read some other authors stories either. Because life isn't perfect, people aren't perfect, and even the deepest most fulfilling love can't change that.

And personally the only GRATUITOUS angst I found about TnT was in season 3 I love all the season 4 I've seen. With the exeption of *the_abomination* of course.

[Pitseleh]

Hi Kotik,

First of all, by all means stay away from all Samantha Quinn's TnT fanfic. I remember I couldn't sleep for two days after reading one particular story of hers. Her stories were/are the definition of angst... (Although there are some great ones in there.)

I have a low tolerance for angst, but if the story is well written, and I'm promised a satisfactory ending for TnT, I can endure and enjoy it. Off the top of my head I can think of several stories and series that have angst (sometimes heavy angst) in them and yet are some of the best examples of TnT fic out there--Shouldknowbetter's series starting with A Logical Proposal, to name one. And although I'm not sure his stuff wouldn't qualify as angst, Rigil Kent's amazing Endeavour series has TnT going through a war together.

I am certainly not a writer, so I wouldn't know which genre is easier to develop. Perhaps angst seems to abound 'cause a) there were A LOT of unresolved issues between TnT, b) you can easily develop it up to a climax and a later conclusion, and c) it stirs some serious emotions. However, I have to admit I deeply admire people who can write stories with little to no angst that keep the reader very interested such as bluetiger or HopefulRomantic. Often enough, stories that are too "happy" tend to be dull instead of funny or entertaining. Writers who pull off a "happy" story/series with success are not that many.

That's it... I'm off to read Ragua's Miscommunication.

[Dinah]

Ummmmm...I'm not quite sure what to say. Maybe you either like angst or you don't .

It's hard to make light of one of the themes of the story -- the struggle with depression. It's something that quite literally makes your life a living hell. As for Trip and T'Pol, I never intended for her to come across as a witch. Everything she did, she did for Trip. So often, it's easy for couples to stay together when times are good and everything is going right. I just figured that if a couple could weather the tough times and come out better, stronger, and closer than they were before, they would be far better prepared to withstand whatever life threw at them in the future. I thought creating a relationship for Trip and T'Pol that was tempered by adversity was important because the future probably was not going to be kind to them: problems with Terra Prime, the Romulan war and public displeasure with a Vulcan-Human union.

I always thoroughly enjoy Alelou's stories. Maybe it's because we tend to approach Trip and T'Pol's relationship from a somewhat similar way. These are two very different people. They struggled for four years on the TV show to find some common ground to begin a relationship. Life is just not destined to be easy for them. Maybe we did go a little overboard at times, but I wouldn't change it. It's the struggle to overcome adversity that's interesting.

[Kotik]

Hey Kotik! WOW! And I thought Silverbullet and ASSO hated angst. Personally, I think Dinah is quite simply the best there is at truly balancing angst and happiness.

Nope, I'm ready ready to take over as BAH (Biggest Angst Hater)

You're right about Dinah, "Thorne and the rose" as well as "Briar Patch" are some of the greatest stories there are, but the angst level of the first half of TATR are beyond my threshold. I remember reading the first 3 or 4 chapters, then fast forwarding until the sanctuary arc and only after knowing the conclusion I was able to read it completely

[WarpGirl]

Oh OUCH! I can't agree at all, that KIND of angst I love.

[Kotik]

Oh OUCH! I can't agree at all, that KIND of angst I love.

Well, its safe to say during all the fighting over my last... um... less successfull attempts at writing, we've established that we differ about a lot of stuff ma'am

Just so nobody gets the wrong idea, I'm not slating anyone here. Many people seem to like angsty stuff, else they wouldn't be writing it. I'm just more interested in watching them overcome their cultural differences and actually working together - I'm a sucker for harmony or at least happyness.

[WarpGirl]

Fighting! What Fighting??? There was NO fighting. Great as if everyone doesn't aleardy think I'm one of these...

[Kotik]

Fighting! What Fighting??? There was NO fighting. Great as if everyone doesn't aleardy think I'm one of these...

um wrong choice of words I guess. It wasn't exactly meant in a negative fashion.

[WarpGirl]

It's not you dear really. It's just that I have a reputation which I hate, and sometimes I get really depressed about it. Now there is some angst I hate. Anyway I was thinking, Bluetiger doesn't really do angst although there is conflict. And Eian doesn't do much angst either. If I'm in a fluff mood they're my go to's.

[panyasan]

I'm just more interested in watching them overcome their cultural differences and actually working together

Thank you for bringing this subject up. It's been a really interesting thread.
I agree with you. I think a lot of writers are influence by season 4. For me, in that season T'Pol and Trip were met also with outside circumstances, which forced T'Pol to act like she did. I really like people portraying T'Pol as Vulcan, what I don't like is stories that portray her as a coldhearted bitch (mostly based on who they interupted T'Pol in season 4) that pushes Trip around and gives him crap beyond believing. I stopped reading some fic's for that reason.

The problem is, without some tension, a story mostly fails for me to be interesting, useless you can write stories like Bluetiger (great stories about family life with humour and insight in the Vulcan-Human dynamic) or like Eian which are just good. I also love Aquarius's stories: humour, Trip and T'Pol teaming up, great emotional lines and sometimes down right hilarious.
You can also create some level of suspence by having Trip and T'Pol have a caring relationship in an angsty enviroment or when they deal with angsty situations. (I noticed that male writers mostly take this road and are mostly much kinder toward T'Pol.)
Dinah's The Briar Patch and Rigil Kent's stories are a good example of this, some stories of Asso and BnB. I also have taken this road in my stories, external forces breaking TnT apart and how they got together again.

I really like stories that have tension of two people working out their relationship, being from different background, without going to the needless angst angle of coolhearted T'Pol given Trip crap. That is problably the reason why I find Alelou's Missing scenes from season one such a great read. I really miss such stories -whether they are placed in season 1-4 or beyond.

[WarpGirl]

Honestly, I must be blind or something because I never, not once, saw T'Pol treating anyone, as a cold-hearted witch, who didn't give a hang she was hurting someone, ever on the whole series. Not even people who deserved it. I especially don't get how people say she was like that in season 4. It boggles my mind, after all it isn't like Trip's a saint or anything. That's why I like your stories Panysan, Trip's screwed up too.

[Kotik]

Honestly, I must be blind or something because I never, not once, saw T'Pol treating anyone, as a cold-hearted witch, who didn't give a hang she was hurting someone, ever on the whole series. Not even people who deserved it. I especially don't get how people say she was like that in season 4. It boggles my mind, after all it isn't like Trip's a saint or anything. That's why I like your stories Panysan, Trip's screwed up too.

There was one moment in series 4, where to me she came acros as ice cold. The moment in "Daedalus", where she tells Trip, that she needs time to find herself. Of course it was a contrived plot tool to create more angst, but they severely damaged the character itself. Also the absence of any scene in which T'Pol informs Trip about the release from marriage. Let's look at the facts :

• She knows that he suffered like a dog when he saw her getting married to another man. Even she must know, that it would help him a great deal to know that it is cancelled
• He offered his help, but she pushes him away coldly
• She definitely has feelings for him, else she wouldn't have taken him to Vulcan. Are they gone just like that?
• She tells him that she hasn't got the capacity to pursue a relationship and even Porthos would have seen that he's severely hurt, yet she walks off and be done with it.

No Vulcan in his right mind would - almost deliberately - hurt another creature like that. Why the writers protrayed her like that is anybodies guess

And no human male would put up with getting hurt so often and so deliberately. I'm talking from experience here, I lived with a woman who hurt me deliberately over several years. I was madly in love, but all I got out of it were a massive bout of depression and 4 months in a mental home with 'suicidal' ticked on my patient form.

[Escriba]

Actually, and I know I'm a minority, I think that her behaviour in "Daedalus" was far from being cold. Yes, she pushes Trip aside, but she tells him what's happening. I take it as a proof of her emotional maturing. Before that, she wouldn't have talked to him, she simply would have avoided him and made him feel miserable without a word. She's trying to deal with some really difficult stuff and she isn't ready to add a romantic relationship to that. That's honesty, more than coldness.

On the other hand, it's Trip the one who acts in a (somewhat) wrong way. He tells her he understands it. Obviously he doesn't and he's hurt, but he doesn't tell her that. He says "OK, don't worry, I'm cool with it" and T'Pol believes him. And why not? She trusts him. It's like... please, men in the board, don't take ofense... It's like when a woman and a man argue and the woman has some hid issue but she tells him "I'm not hurt" and he says "Oh, OK" because, you know, men aren't telepaths.

It's curious how it's men the ones who doesn't like angst very much. Perhaps emotional problems aren't their thing. Perhaps that's why more than the 90% of the divorces are initiated by women