Major Rant : Angst

[WarpGirl]

I'm sorry but he was grinning like a cat who got the cream when she walked away. (I just saw that one) I'd say she inadvertently hurt him during Anear, BUT she was doing her job then for God's sake. Actually she hurt him a lot without knowing it. But hey so did he! And it isn't as if she set out to do it. Some people write her as so manipulative and calculating that it makes me want to SCREAM. Loudly.

[Alelou]

If I've noticed some common themes, it's that most of the guys (and some of the women) think there's no way a real man would or should put up with what T'Pol dished out in Season 4 (and sometimes Season 3). (Judging from his remarks at the con, CT is also in that group.)

Others, mostly women but including a few men, understand why T'Pol might behave the way she did, also understand that it would cause Trip pain, but can still root for the two coming together despite what has happened without concluding that this makes Trip a pathetic wuss. (Though I think most of us in that group are relieved that he got the upper hand in Bound.)

All of us, I think, can agree that the complete absence of certain scenes -- like T'Pol telling Trip about the end of her marriage -- made their relationship look even more screwed up than it already was.

[Asso]

... (I noticed that male writers mostly take this road and are mostly much kinder toward T'Pol.)...

Well! If you know the males at least a little bit, you can wholly understand the reason!

...It's curious how it's men the ones who doesn't like angst very much. Perhaps emotional problems aren't their thing. Perhaps that's why more than the 90% of the divorces are initiated by women

Angst... or rather the search for angst, THE DELIBERATE SEARCH, it's totally useless, and foolish for the men. Men are not made for angst: they look for the women who can love them without too many questions.
Men are cave dwellers, Escriba. Don't you know that?

[WarpGirl]

Well Asso if you and your wife never have any problems, never misunderstand each other, are always in wonderful moods, and have lives where nothing bad ever happens to you... I'd love to know how you pulled that one off. Because I can't even have that with my own mother, and she is the person I get along with the best in the entire world. What your saying goes against real life, maybe Italy makes things easier or something?

Anyway I think that T'Pol's reaction after Koss lets her go is one of shock, I mean her society is shaken to it'd foundation, mom has died, she's suddenly cured from the pa'nar, and she's divorced something that is so rare that she never even considered it. I think the woman deserves a little time to sort things through. I'd ask to be let alone, but I'd also make sure I made it clear that it was temporary. Which is where I think she messed up, because all the men I know would need it put in big glowing letters.

[Asso]

Well Asso if you and your wife never have any problems, never misunderstand each other, are always in wonderful moods, and have lives where nothing bad ever happens to you... I'd love to know how you pulled that one off. Because I can't even have that with my own mother, and she is the person I get along with the best in the entire world. What your saying goes against real life, maybe Italy makes things easier or something?

This is another matter, WarpGirl.

[Aikiweezie]

All of us, I think, can agree that the complete absence of certain scenes -- like T'Pol telling Trip about the end of her marriage -- made their relationship look even more screwed up than it already was.

Absolutely. That one especially leaves a big hole. Trip's comments to Malcolm that "There's nothing going on between us anymore if you're interested," tells me that the conversation between them about her divorce was a very tough one - and it was decided by one or both that it was OVER, divorce or not. Obviously, though, it wasn't and neither one could deny their feelings.

[Kotik]

All of us, I think, can agree that the complete absence of certain scenes -- like T'Pol telling Trip about the end of her marriage -- made their relationship look even more screwed up than it already was.

Absolutely. That one especially leaves a big hole. Trip's comments to Malcolm that "There's nothing going on between us anymore if you're interested," tells me that the conversation between them about her divorce was a very tough one - and it was decided by one or both that it was OVER, divorce or not. Obviously, though, it wasn't and neither one could deny their feelings.

The whole handling of their relationship was nothing short of abysmal. Season 4 had some great episodes, like the Vulcan Arc (although I'm completely smitten with T'Pau, so I'm biased ) but Trip/T'Pol matters where handled in an unbelievably inept way, that you would expect from an office temp with a bad attitude, but not from a professional writer.

[WarpGirl]

Honestly the only gratuitous angst in season four I found was Trip thinking that T'Pol had somehow hidden a pregnancy from him! How did he think she could do that on a ship with 83 people. You couldn't do it on the Enterprise D and it had 1200 people (rounding up). So yeah that bugged me. Because even if she had the fetus removed early, those catsuits would have shown all the little changes her body would go through during the first few months. They were painted on, no way to hide a fuller bust-line, widening hips, and horomonal glow. Not with those outfits.

[Alelou]

The whole handling of their relationship was nothing short of abysmal. Season 4 had some great episodes, like the Vulcan Arc (although I'm completely smitten with T'Pau, so I'm biased ) but Trip/T'Pol matters where handled in an unbelievably inept way, that you would expect from an office temp with a bad attitude, but not from a professional writer.

Maybe if we were watching a show called Star Trek: Trip and T'Pol, I would agree with you.

Gosh, it's always so easy and fun to excoriate the series writers!

[Asso]

...a show called Star Trek: Trip and T'Pol...

Where is it? WHERE IS IT???

[WarpGirl]

Alelou my problem with the writing wasn't the TnT stuff, I mean even the parts I don't like were pretty good. But I gotta say the quality just started to take a nose-dive, around season 6 of Voyager and ENT was just awful 80 percent of the time. I'm talking in terms of being Trek like, the stories were at times just um uninspired. And frankly that is why as a series, I really don't like it. I hated DS9 because of the characters, but the stories were good. With ENT the characters (except Archer and Travis) were wonderful but the stories were awful. I'm not sure it was a writers thing though, more like a production thing.

[Alelou]

Personally I found the writing uneven, as all Treks have been, and as most full-season network shows are, but it was obviously compelling enough to entertain me and hook me. But we'll never agree on this so why try.

And, Asso, I think this IS the Star Trek: Trip and T'Pol show, right here.

[Escriba]

Some people write her as so manipulative and calculating that it makes me want to SCREAM. Loudly.

Oh, but the fact is that she is calculating, she has to calculate and think her actions, she doesn't improvise much. What she isn't is manipulative, she doesn't consciounsly hurt people. The only time when she manipulates feelings or a situation, in the sense of provoking a certain emotional answer, is in "Harbinger" when she tried to arise in Trip the emotional response she suspected he would. Otherwise she isn't manipulative, especially since she never gives Trip false hopes about their relationship.

Angst... or rather the search for angst, THE DELIBERATE SEARCH, it's totally useless, and foolish for the men. Men are not made for angst: they look for the women who can love them without too many questions.
Men are cave dwellers, Escriba. Don't you know that?

No, it's not that what I meant. See, men (at least where I grew up) are taught to decide, to take charge of their lives. You know, to be the paterfamilias. They do that in every side of life except in the emotional terrain. Which makes a lot of men miserable (at least, here). You can have a man with a disastrous family life, who doesn't love his wife and isn't loved by her, and he can't take himself to divorce and be happy. Men suffer a lot trying to avoid suffering.

[pdsldl]

The whole handling of their relationship was nothing short of abysmal. Season 4 had some great episodes, like the Vulcan Arc (although I'm completely smitten with T'Pau, so I'm biased ) but Trip/T'Pol matters where handled in an unbelievably inept way, that you would expect from an office temp with a bad attitude, but not from a professional writer.

Maybe if we were watching a show called Star Trek: Trip and T'Pol, I would agree with you.

Gosh, it's always so easy and fun to excoriate the series writers!

If it had been a TnT centered Star Trek I wonder if they would have had more of an audience or less? I definitely would have preferred Trip as the Captain but then I think that would have put a stop to any relationship between Trip and T'Pol because of the command issues and it would have limited the writers in storylines centered around the captain and first contacts. Although the writers didn't pattern Archer's behavior with the opposite sex after Kirk's.

I actually thought they were finally getting TnT right by the end of season 4 and if they had continued i was hopeful they would show them trying to be a couple on a starship and dealing with the repercussions such a union would entail on and off the ship, personally and professionally. It could have been handled much better and I could have done without the contrived angst (And I do see Home as part of that) but it could have been worse.

[WarpGirl]

Maybe I just can't forgive Rouge Planet. And I agree T'Pol is manipulative and calculating, absolutely! Most people who are highly empathic with genus level IQ's are. They have to be or they can't function. But some writers take those qualities and make them bad, when in fact they can be very good to have. Besides Trip is also manipulative and calculating. If he wasn't T'Pol would have never become a Frankinstine fan, or tried pecan pie. He is also highly empathic with an extremely high IQ.