TnT's Bond - How does it work?

[Alelou]

No, they just politely pretend that whole swaths of women in certain cultures aren't affected by it, or speak up against it periodically without actually doing much of anything about it. (If you're at all interested in where I'm coming from, read this: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/23/magaz ... html?_r=1#)

But I'm not bitter...

Seriously, though, in a species that mates through a process like pon farr, would the concept of rape as we know it even exist? I suppose it would have to, but wouldn't it be quite different?

[Escriba]

I'm not saying that international organizations or political leaders actually do something (anything) about rape, I said that we don't think it's a cultural trait in our society. Vulcans technically do.

Seriously, though, in a species that mates through a process like pon farr, would the concept of rape as we know it even exist? I suppose it would have to, but wouldn't it be quite different?

If we use the pon-farr as an allegory for "sex during the influence", the rape wouldn't happen during the pon-farr itself, since the male can't control it and he can transfer his fever to the female (so she actually can enjoy it and all.) The rape happens before. If I said no before being under the influence, then it's no, and it's rape. In other words, if I wouldn't do it without drugs/alcohol/whatever, it's rape.

Now, what Vulcans do is to assume that since you bonded, you will consent. Which is a crazy assumption, but on the other hand, if you didn't want, why did you bonded? (thinking in a Vulcan mode)

[Asso]

No, they just politely pretend that whole swaths of women in certain cultures aren't affected by it, or speak up against it periodically without actually doing much of anything about it. (If you're at all interested in where I'm coming from, read this: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/23/magaz ... html?_r=1#)

And what means this, Alelou? That we must surrender?

Seriously, though, in a species that mates through a process like pon farr, would the concept of rape as we know it even exist? I suppose it would have to, but wouldn't it be quite different?

Once again excuse me, Alelou, but this is a play I don't like. With the right words, everything can be said and supported, but not always that is a good thing.

[honeybee]

Seriously, though, in a species that mates through a process like pon farr, would the concept of rape as we know it even exist? I suppose it would have to, but wouldn't it be quite different?

It might be, but it doesn't make it right. Especially if T'Pol has a bond with Trip and not with Koss. The bond, as is my understanding, triggers pon farr in the mate. So, if that were the case, it would be different for Vulcans but not necessarily for other species. (See that episode of Voyager where the young Vulcan forcibly bonds with B'Elena and she still refuses him.) But again, T'Pol is not bonded with Koss. So she wouldn't want or need sexual congress when he went through his cycle. He should have found someone willing to bond with him.

It is interesting to note that this whole "fight to the death thing" is an out given to women, so Vulcans may not see it as "rape" per say because T'Pol did have that choice but her "out" involved putting Trip in mortal danger. (I love the look on T'Pol's face in Home when Koss says he's game to fight Trip, it says volumes.)

On a side note I don't think it was ever made clear why Vulcan women would go through Pon Farr on their own. You would think that the males would go through it and trigger it in their mates through the bond. I work out this by saying Vulcan woman have it on their own, only if they are unbonded to a male. If they are bonded with a Vulcan male, then their mating cycles align.

No, they just politely pretend that whole swaths of women in certain cultures aren't affected by it, or speak up against it periodically without actually doing much of anything about it. (If you're at all interested in where I'm coming from, read this: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/23/magaz ... html?_r=1#)

But I'm not bitter...

There's not a day that goes by that I don't count myself lucky for being born in the time and place where I am, and I hope that humanity can move away from theses barbaric practices. *sigh*

[WarpGirl]

WOAH! OK I didn't think the whole rape thing would come up, well not so early in the morning. OK here's my two cents... First of all, I don't see Pon Farr as rape for several resons...

1. A poor Vulcan man has absolutely no control over this. It's not like he saysHey I'll go into Plak Tau today so I can get some nookie, so the little wife can't have a headache. Vulcan men dread this, contented married men are ashamed of it. I'm sure Kov had no idea what he was talking about when he talked to Trip and Malcolm about it. He obvioulsy hadn't gone through it yet.

2. There is no human condition that can be cured by sex. So this is a true alien thing and should be treated as such. Human morals don't apply.

3. In a bonded relationship when Pon Farr starts both parties go through it that's automatic consent because they'll both die if they dont. Remember B'Elanna was half-Klingon and Half Human, different physiology and brain chemistry. And while she and Vorik shared a weak telepathic link it wasn't a true bond, that TnT have.

4. Because T'Pol isn't bonded to Koss she might not be culturally obligated to save him. But since it's indirectly her fault he's in the mess, I could see her doing it. She's made many a stranger decision IMO. Mind-melding with Tolaris????????

5. People make it sound like any Vulcan male in Pon Farr automatically has the right to take any woman at all with no consequences. I don't believe that is true. I blame fanfic for this, there are so many out there that portray Pon Farr as legalized rape, and it isn't at all. If you really watch Voyager and study it, you'd know that they never had any intention of allowing Vorik to force B'Elanna to have sex. In fact never in ST history has Pon Farr been used as an excuse for rape. Frankly I don't like hearing that it is. Watch Tuvok's Pon Farr episode, it is heartbreaking.

So in conclusion I don't see where rape comes into this at all.

[Silverbullet]

Dunno, but I got the idea somewhere that since T-Pol is bonded with Trip she could not have Sex with Koss the bond with Trip would prevent it. Sort like a enforced faithfulness. I also got the idea that the Bond is for life nad binds the two completely keeping them from even looking at another with desire. So, if Koss goes into Ponn Farr T-Pol would resist his efforts and prbnably kill him since she is suppsedly better trained and in better condition.

Why does everyone believe that Trip would lose a death match? Koss in an architect he sits on his butt all day so he probably would be way out of shape and may not have touched weapon in his life. so Trip being in better shape and at least a little trained as a fighter might be able to kill Koss quickly before the atmosphere and gravity got to him.

[WarpGirl]

Well I wanted to bring that up too. Since T'Pol is bonded to Trip, Koss being in Pon Farr wouldn't trigger her mating cycle. And if that didn't happen culturally I think she's absolved. However, I'm certain it doesn't physically hinder a Vulcan from being able to have sex. Otherwise Vorik couldn't have melded with B'Elanna at all. But as we all know sometimes T'Pol makes choices that make no sense, so I'd say she might think...I'm married to the guy, this is partially my fault, I can't let him die. Hard decision and frankly I'm undecided if it's a right or a wrong one. I'm not saying she definitely would, just saying it's a possibility.

Anyway I don't see why Koss should die at all. What did he do to deserve death?

[Escriba]

Why does everyone believe that Trip would lose a death match? Koss in an architect he sits on his butt all day so he probably would be way out of shape and may not have touched weapon in his life. so Trip being in better shape and at least a little trained as a fighter might be able to kill Koss quickly before the atmosphere and gravity got to him.

In my mind (which has its own national anthem and Law system), since there is always the possibility of kal-if-fee, Vulcan males train since childhood for it (it would be illogical not to.) Against a trained Vulcan (more stamina, strenght and speed) on his own planet, with a weapon of his choice, I say Trip has to be very lucky and smart to win. Not impossible, of course, especially if somebody tells him which can be Koss' weak points.

[Asso]

In my mind (which has its own national anthem and Law system), since there is always the possibility of kal-if-fee, Vulcan males train since childhood for it (it would be illogical not to.) Against a trained Vulcan (more stamina, strenght and speed) on his own planet, with a weapon of his choice, I say Trip has to be very lucky and smart to win. Not impossible, of course, especially if somebody tells him which can be Koss' weak points.

Oh sure! Trip is not Archer, isn't he?
Honestly, Escriba, the Vulcan society you think of, is nothing but a primitive civilization.
For me, Escriba. For me.

[Escriba]

Yeah, but have your mind national anthem, Law system and population (myself, my ego, my rage and my childish side)? Nope

[Asso]

This time, it's me the one who doesn't understand.

[Escriba]

I meant that in your mind Vulcans aren't so primitive, you imagine them otherwise. You use your intellect and experience to visualize them as you do.

Which is great. My mind isn't logical at all. But who needs logic when it has a national anthem and its own Law system?

[Asso]

Ahhhh....

[Escriba]

You're thinking "this girl is a little nuts", aren't you?

[Asso]

Me? How can you think that?