Major Rant : Angst

[WarpGirl]

Oh I get it now. OK Boy language differences are tough. Cool. Thanks guys, especially Escriba. Asso stay away from CSI, Bones, Law and Order, SG-1, and stay far away from Knights of the Old Republic, I don't think you'd survive long.

[Asso]

Oh I get it now. OK Boy language differences are tough. Cool. Thanks guys, especially Escriba. Asso stay away from CSI, Bones, Law and Order, SG-1, and stay far away from Knights of the Old Republic, I don't think you'd survive long.

I'm strong.

[panyasan]

There's a difference between characters facing realistic challenges and some of the let's see how much pain and anguish we can heap on them and then to make it all better we'll let them go off and make mad passionate love or have endless mindless sex and we're done.

Exactly. What really bugs me, is the excuses for this kind of writing: RL isn't pretty either. Trust me, I do know. I also know that good writing is hard work as well, sometimes I write something and looking back I think it fall flat. To sum up my opinion about angst: A good use for me is when I see two people struggle (alone and together) with what ever life deals with them and grow in that process.

[Asso]

There's a difference between characters facing realistic challenges and some of the let's see how much pain and anguish we can heap on them and then to make it all better we'll let them go off and make mad passionate love or have endless mindless sex and we're done.

Exactly. What really bugs me, is the excuses for this kind of writing: RL isn't pretty either. Trust me, I do know. I also know that good writing is hard work as well, sometimes I write something and looking back I think it fall flat. A very good story for me is when I see two people struggle (alone and together) with what ever life deals with them and grow in that process.

I know.
And it looks great.

[Escriba]

What I want to read (and seek to write, even if I don't always get it) is something honest. It has to seem real, it has to feel real. The story has to flow, it must have internal logic, it mustn't be contrived.

Because that's what bad angst is. It lacks honesty. It's not about "let's make them suffer" it's about telling a story. If that story leads you to Trip and T'Pol hurting each other, don't freak out, if the characters are in character, there is nothing wrong. But, if they hurt each other too much, then be honest and let them act as adults, let them break up (if they're together) or go in separate ways. Maybe I won't like it (as a shipper), but life it's like that, sometimes it happens. But once they aren't together don't try to draw them together for the shake of it. Because it's not going to work. It's going to be contrived, sadistic and, at last, deus ex machina.

Let the story breath, be real, be organic. And everything will be all right.

Now, if only I could follow that rule

[panyasan]

Escriba, I couldn't agree with you more!

[Asso]

What I want to read (and seek to write, even if I don't always get it) is something honest. It has to seem real, it has to feel real. The story has to flow, it must have internal logic, it mustn't be contrived.

Because that's what bad angst is. It lacks honesty. It's not about "let's make them suffer" it's about telling a story. If that story leads you to Trip and T'Pol hurting each other, don't freak out, if the characters are in character, there is nothing wrong. But, if they hurt each other too much, then be honest and let them act as adults, let them break up (if they're together) or go in separate ways. Maybe I won't like it (as a shipper), but life it's like that, sometimes it happens. But once they aren't together don't try to draw them together for the shake of it. Because it's not going to work. It's going to be contrived, sadistic and, at last, deus ex machina.

Let the story breath, be real, be organic. And everything will be all right.

Forgive me, Escriba, but I don't think it's sufficient. It is the "Condicio sine qua non", but, in this way, you can justify everything, if this "condicio" is fulfilled. I don't have your ideas about that. There must be something else, because - if not - you can write absolutely honestly the badder things.

[Escriba]

but, in this way, you can justify everything,

But that's the point, Asso.

If the story has internal logic and the characters are in character, then the story will be good. Maybe not something I'd read happily (since, as a shipper, I don't want TnT to break up), but at least something readable.

[Asso]

but, in this way, you can justify everything,

But that's the point, Asso.

If the story has internal logic and the characters are in character, then the story will be good. Maybe not something I'd read happily (since, as a shipper, I don't want TnT to break up), but at least something readable.

That's an ancient dispute, Escriba, never solved.
As you know, I don't be a supporter of "the characters have to be in character", and about the "internal logic"... well... Logic is like philosophy: everyone sees it from his personal point of view.
In this way, all stories which meet these requirements could be good. Do you think this could be true?

[Escriba]

Don't be a sophist

We can have our differences about characters, but if somebody is writing a character in a certain way, then it'd be better for her/him to know why that particular character acts that way. And if a reviewer think that character is OOC then that reviewer must prove why s/he is.

About when a story has internal logic, or, in other words, "when the plot works", the great Minisinoo can explain it better than me: The Glory of Plot

PS: Yes, I can think a story is good even if I don't like where my favorite characters end. Quality is quality.

[Asso]

What do you have against sophists?
Escriba, I don't like the "Great Teachers". I met a lot of them during my life, and...
Quality is quality, yes.
If you like that genre of quality.
Do you know? This is not the first time I have heard this definition. It always remembered me that manner of speaking about someone which has the bad luck to be very ugly: "Ehh... but he is so smart!"

[WarpGirl]

Panysan and Escriba if I can somehow fully incorperate the principles you have so eloquently expressed in my own writing I would consider myself very blessed. And Asso I'm sorry but I think Logical narrative and staying in character are extremely important. I cannot read stories that completely disregard these fundemental blocks of quality writing.

[Escriba]

Do you know? This is not the first time I have heard this definition. It always remembered me that manner of speaking about someone which has the bad luck to be very ugly: "Ehh... but he is so smart!"

As somebody who has heard the same thing about herself, I sympathise

Look, I think the problem is that, since this is fanfiction, and more precisely, shipper fanfiction, people has some kind of expectations. The main of them being that Trip and T'Pol should be together. And so, many of these fans are going to read anything and are going to tolerate even bad writing fics because they reflect that idea. OK, I'm cool with that. But if you like to read pamphlets then be honest and say you want to read pamphlets, don't criticise me because I've taken the characters to a point you don't like and say that's OOCness.

That's why people get best story and favorite story mixed. They aren't the same thing.

Sorry if I sound harsh, I really don't want to. It's just that I don't know how to say it with more diplomatical words.

As for myself, I'd read a story where Trip and T'Pol break up if it's good rather than a bad contrived story that has them together for the shake of it.

[Asso]

Okay. I think we two could discuss about that forever. Someone has to cease.

WarpGirl, I know you don't share my ideas. I'm displeased, but that's life.

Anyway I'm happy that Panyasan and pdsldl seem to have met something of what I want to mean.
I hope.

[WarpGirl]

Asso why should you be displeased, I'm not displeased that you don't agree with me. Escriba I think you are so right, I mean some of my favorite fics aren't necessarily great pieces of writing. I get that and accept it, but I also read fics where I wouldn't come up with some of those ideas at all and guess what... They're just amazing stories. Well written, thought out, and meaningful. Even if I don't agree with what the author does with the characters, I can enjoy it because it's different, and because it's just good. I don't need to have my own preferences met to enjoy quality work, but I do need quality work to match my preferences.

Is that wierd? It might be, I'm weird.