Major Rant : Angst

[WarpGirl]

That's exactly my point. And basically how I handled it in my own SW's fic. Not the same type of SW Aquarius is talking about though.

Hey Shakespere stole EVERY SINGLE ONE of his plots from something else. But when I read the same, "mom and Dad hate T'Pol and mom tires to get Trip another girl" 300 times and every single one of them feature a Pamela Anderson rival. I say ENOUGH!

As I'm sure there's lots of kinds of Enterprise fanfic, I'm TnT-centric--just as I'm Han/Leia-centric in SW. So, once you've been through all the H/L archives, yeah, "Leia Slaps Han" is just tired. Now, if she slapped him for an entirely new reason and it was justified (waking him up after passing out, maybe? 'Cause I'm pretty sure I haven't seen THAT before in H/L), then I'd be able to hang with it.

So yeah. In terms of TnT...sure, I can buy that his parents may have a little bit of a problem with his relationship with her...they may be well-meaning, or maybe they're bigots, we don't know...but for many of us it's human nature to be wary of anything "different," and in all fairness, T'Pol is different. This is not what I would call a cliche, this is what I would call a "given circumstance" that's inherent in their situation--a look at the earliest attempts at interracial dating here in the U.S. will bear this out and serve as a realistic foundation upon which to build such a story.

--HOWEVER--

Yeah, the "let's fix Trip up with a nice Human girl so he'll forget all about the Vulcan chick" can get a little old.

So, again, it's all about what an author would DO with the given circumstances of people from two different races dating and mating that will make it either Masterpiece Theater or My Little Pony.

Actually I HAVE seen Leia slaps Han waking him up after passing out, a few times. Not that I read much H/L. I don't see the point. They practically have a whole wall, in the sci-fi section of a local library.

As for the rest that's was my point. Only beautifully made.

[Kotik]

Asking again here, I only ever found one single story in which Trip's mom tried to fix up Trip with another girl to pry him away from T'Pol. Can someone give some examples of stories where that concept is used ?

[WarpGirl]

Oh god can I even remember? I'll think about it but I know I've read a lot.

[Aquarius]

Asking again here, I only ever found one single story in which Trip's mom tried to fix up Trip with another girl to pry him away from T'Pol. Can someone give some examples of stories where that concept is used ?

It isn't that I've personally seen a lot of them, but off the cuff I find the concept kind of trite and contrived so if I encountered it more than a couple of times it would likely tend to get on my nerves. I've seen way too many sitcoms with that as a plot for an episode. Just my opinion. Others may be perfectly happy reading that; I could be too, if it had something original about it and wasn't overly simplistic.

I don't want to get into a big H/L debate, WarpGirl, but if you visited my board, or Echo Base, you'd see that the vast majority of H/L fans feel that H/L get ignored (at best) or mistreated (generally the norm) in profic, so it isn't our experience that the local library has all that much devoted to them, as "Tattooine Ghost" is pretty much the only novel that was worth a damn to the H/L fan. The whole Drunk Loner/Ice Princess thing got too old too fast, and "Courtship of Princess Leia" was just a travesty. H/L in the profic is a perfect example (most of the time) of angst for angst's sake. As for the rest of the novels, the publishers are entirely too consumed with Saint Mara and they put a lot of energy into making Leia look stupid or bad in order to make Mara look good.

[CX]

On reason that Men should avoid writng about Rape is that they cannot really concveive it's horror for a female or the fear of it that ;robably lives in many females minds. I cannot conceive of the violation I wold feel if that sort of thng hapened to me. Seeng horror and bein subjected to it are different animals. I believe that men should avoid Rape. Think that too many male writers use Rape in their stories because they are lazy and want to degrade their characters easily so a rape comes into mind.

Men get raped, too. I still hold that Trip was raped during Unexpected. Far fewer men come forward due to the way society treats them. I've even seen the victim's name printed in the newspaper - something that would never normally be done if the victim had been female. The reason most male writers avoid the subject of rape is because they're afraid of how readers would view them, since they wrote it, after all.

[Kotik]

On reason that Men should avoid writng about Rape is that they cannot really concveive it's horror for a female or the fear of it that ;robably lives in many females minds. I cannot conceive of the violation I wold feel if that sort of thng hapened to me. Seeng horror and bein subjected to it are different animals. I believe that men should avoid Rape. Think that too many male writers use Rape in their stories because they are lazy and want to degrade their characters easily so a rape comes into mind.

Seriously Silverbullet, I'm getting badly pissed off when I read prejudiced junk like that. I'm not out to insult you, but what you wrote is the biggest load of bovine excrements I've ever read. What is your perception of men? Are we insensitive ape's who's only purpose in life is to bend every female over the next piece of furniture and give her a damn good seeing-to ?

I'm the worlds most useless date, but that statement is seriously offensive, as is one other you made about marriages breaking up because of the resulting absence of intimate action. I'll be stripping my soul butt naked here, but I guess it serves a purpose, because some people need to learn that not all men are insensitive sex-crazed gorillas.

I've met, what I believe was the love of my life when I was 17. She was the daughter of a protestant priest. To say she was prude would be the understatement of the century. That girl was turning beef-red if she saw herself half-naked in the mirror. By your definition of men I would have walked out of that relationship in a damn hurry, but I didn't. I stood by her side and supported her any way I could for over three years and I didn't make any move on her in the sexual departement until she learned I was suppressing every urges that a 19 year old male is sort of bound to have especially with a girl he loves. She broke up for fear of hurting me any further. She was unable to go further than kissing and I had to pay the damn price for it.

I lived effing lonely for 12 years afterwards until I opened up again. Guess what, I plunged right into the effing brown stuff again. Met a nice girl from russia, who was living in Germany. I soon learned that she was raped when she was mother-effing 12 years old. Guess how much nookie that got me over 5 years? 4 times and everytime I felt like a f*cking pig, because it was obvious that she was enduring it for my sake. Wanna talk about pain and horror? I've yanked her out of more nightmares than I can count, several times she beat me into a bloody pulp at night caught somewhere between her nightmares and awaking next to a male. I've seen the shit that comes as a result of rape and I've paid badly for it. After 5 years I couldn't stand it anymore myself and I ended up in a f*cking mental home.

Sorry, if I've been offensive, but cliche statements like that get me very worked up

[Aquarius]

Not to mention the fact that shows like Law & Order SVU (forgive me for coming back to this example but I'm a fan of the show so it's an easy target for the purposes of this discussion) have several male writers who deal with the issue of rape in the vast majority of episodes, and it continues to be a compelling, well-written, highly-rated program. I think remarks like "men shouldn't write about rape" are extremely gender-biased and kind of short-sighted. I"m not trying to go on the attack here, Silverbullet, but I want you to understand why remarks like that won't necessarily be well-received, especially in this day and age.

The fact of the matter is, men DO get raped, much more often than the best guess of anyone here, I'd bet. Sometimes by women, and sometimes by other men. Unfortunately, the vast majority of them go unreported because of shame and humiliation based on gender biases that still exist on our society that dictate what men "should" and "shouldn't" be. And that's a damn shame because no one should have to live with being victimized that way, let alone be afraid to report it out of fear of not being taken seriously or being viewed as a failure as a member of his or her gender.

Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion; let's just be cautious that we don't tread too close to the hot-buttonness of this issue.

[WarpGirl]

Men get raped, too. I still hold that Trip was raped during Unexpected. Far fewer men come forward due to the way society treats them. I've even seen the victim's name printed in the newspaper - something that would never normally be done if the victim had been female. The reason most male writers avoid the subject of rape is because they're afraid of how readers would view them, since they wrote it, after all.

[/quote]

Another reason I refuse to watch that one. To treat any unwanted sexual contact as a joke is really stupid. But you are so right, this isn't a men vs women issue. This is a human issue. Which is why I think it should be written about and treated with the respect it deserves. When people don't do that it can get sick. But when people do I think it is something positive.

[pdsldl]

Asking again here, I only ever found one single story in which Trip's mom tried to fix up Trip with another girl to pry him away from T'Pol. Can someone give some examples of stories where that concept is used ?

There's a series that starts with A Sweet Goodbye by TLR at HOT that has a story called Competition that has this theme. I rather liked it except I thought the resolution was rushed.

The whole rape issue seems weird to me. It happens and it's all in how it's handled in the fic. Don't give me the graphic details I really don't need to be there in that way to get it, but then again I'm pretty worn out on the graphic sex stuff anyway. If you want to write porn just go write porn and leave TnT out of it. I read so much fanfic with the overly graphic sex scenes or pain and torture scenes in them that I find them boring. Even if I find the overall story good I skip these parts. But then again if you read my stuff you know I go more for the romantic, emotional side of things than the details of where and how anyway. I've been reading Farscape fic lately and I can't believe how many stories took the Scorpius capture torture theme to the extreme and the Grayza heppel oil rape stuff to places I couldn't even imagine until I saw the stories. And then they take Crichton to some really strange extreme places exercising his psychic demons People who do that must have some pretty dark places inside that their trying to excise or something. I don't get what the purpose of bringing that kind of pain and suffering to a situation the character faced in canon is. To me that's not adding anything to the plotline it's just twisted but judging by the reviews for some of these stories there are readers who enjoy them. But to me they aren't looking for stories that expand on what we saw on the screen but take something the writer identified with and make it into something totally unrelated to the original characters.

And CX I agree I've always thought that treating Trip's getting pregnant as a joke was cruel and showed just how out of touch the writers were. But then again Star Trek had done it before. Deanna Troi was raped by that alien being that just wanted to experience being born and then T"pol with Tolaris and Rajiin. Tolaris was handled with a little more finesse than I'd seen before but I thnk that's because it was used as an HIV/Aids analogy and not the rape thing. That was glossed over fairly quickly.

[Silverbullet]

Kotik, how to answer your post withut being offensive or starting a P...... contest

It is well documented marriages breaking up because the husband cold not resume sexual relations . Breaking up becaue the Husband could not accept that his wife was violated and penetrated by another man. Immature? Selfish? I don't knowI have never been in that position and would never want to be.

No, I don't belive that men are insensitive gorrilas or animals but they are human. Look around at the different societies in the world and how women are viewed and treated. In many conservative muslim societies a woman who has been raped is accused of dishonring her husband and family and in some areas can be stoned to death or murdered in an "Honor Killing"

Pls don't judge me by your experience. I am 74 and believe it or not have had some experiences that I hope you never know

What I wrote was not bovine Crap, it was based on my personal experience and observations over the years in addition to readings. I am not a fool.

I was once in an interracial affair with a Black female. She broke it off befcause she feared that I woulld want to take it to marriage. At that time interacial marriage was banned in every state but Wash D.C. and there it was frowned upon. She did not have the strength to go through what we woulld have had to go through. Had I tried to check into a Hotel with her even with a valid marriage certificate and license I would have been told to get out and take that "Whore" with you.

In today's world children are at risk from creeps that kidnap, rape and then kill them. When I was a boy of six or seven I was told that if I got lost or was in trouble go to the nearest adult and that person would help me. At that time the statement was true. No more. So, diferent world, different ages. we see through diferent prisms.

[Aquarius]

I was once in an interracial affair with a Black female. She broke it off befcause she feared that I woulld want to take it to marriage. At that time interacial marriage was banned in every state but Wash D.C. and there it was frowned upon. She did not have the strength to go through what we woulld have had to go through. Had I tried to check into a Hotel with her even with a valid marriage certificate and license I would have been told to get out and take that "Whore" with you.

Okay now see, THIS is the kind of experience that's valuable to draw upon when considering those "given circumstances" that come along with a relationship between a Human and a Vulcan. While the vast majority of Humans would mean well, they certainly might not "understand," or they may simply not want to go along with anything that would disturb the status quo for fear of what their friends, family, and neighbors might think.

Others, on the other hand, would be complete bigots.

And still others would be totally okay with it.

And while in TnT's century our race is supposedly more "enlightened" about such stuff, while they're okay with and totally accustomed to the various varieties of humans consorting with each other, the idea of a human canoodling with an alien from another planet would be viewed as anything from novel (at the very least) to outright perverted and disgusting (see the whackjobs behind the Terra Prime organization). Yes, I can see Trip and T'Pol being on the receiving end of disapproving stares even if no one dared to say anything. Yes, I could even see them having trouble checking into a hotel, even if they had the wedding bands to back it up.

THIS, Silverbullet, is exactly the kind of thought-provoking, discussion-fueling remark I hope to see in slippery threads like this one.

So, I'm really, really curious now if anyone else has anything to add about TnT's situation based on this particular bit of insight? Because stuff like this has been in the back of my mind for months when it comes to writing about them.

[CX]

And CX I agree I've always thought that treating Trip's getting pregnant as a joke was cruel and showed just how out of touch the writers were. But then again Star Trek had done it before. Deanna Troi was raped by that alien being that just wanted to experience being born and then T"pol with Tolaris and Rajiin. Tolaris was handled with a little more finesse than I'd seen before but I thnk that's because it was used as an HIV/Aids analogy and not the rape thing. That was glossed over fairly quickly.

Sad part is, a lot of fans don't see it that way. Especially Trip's rape as being a rape. There are a couple of TV tropes in regard to that: Rape Is Ok When It Is Female On Male and Rape As Comedy. When I point out that Trip was in fact raped, the usual response I get is along the "he wanted it" and the It's Not Rape If You Enjoyed It lines.

What I wrote was not bovine Crap, it was based on my personal experience and observations over the years in addition to readings. I am not a fool.

Be that as it may, your statements concerning the subject of men and rape were pretty foolish, mostly because they were based on gender stereotypes. It doesn't matter how old we are, we can still make those sorts of mistakes, and we all still have our biases which can cloud our foolishness from us.

I may not be as angry as Kotik (which is probably why I'm being a lot more diplomatic), but I was somewhat insulted myself.

[Kotik]

Be that as it may, your statements concerning the subject of men and rape were pretty foolish, mostly because they were based on gender stereotypes. It doesn't matter how old we are, we can still make those sorts of mistakes, and we all still have our biases which can cloud our foolishness from us.

I may not be as angry as Kotik (which is probably why I'm being a lot more diplomatic), but I was somewhat insulted myself.

Yeah, I appologize for being un-diplomatic on that account. I've seen another person, whom I loved dearly, go through hell in the aftermath of being raped. 'Horrible' doesn't even start to describe it. What really enrages me is that gender-racist stuff of people who say, that men can't understand the impact of such violation - that's just wrong. I've seen it for five years, first hand. I'm bound to react very extremely on that subject. Sorry if I offended someone.

[honeybee]

I never saw Trip's experience in "Unexpected" as a rape, per se, because I thought the episode went out of its way to show that the Xyrillians reproduced in a way that was not at all human-like and that what happened to Trip was accidental. However, I can see where people would see it a rape. I certainly agree, however, that Trip's body was violated in what would be a very traumatic and unpleasant way, and it shouldn't have been played for laughs. I suppose if "mind melds" can be construed as rape, so can being impregnated by a bowl of marbles. And yes, men do get raped more often than anyone likes to admit, and it is a deadly serious matter. Even not seeing it as a rape, I never liked that episode because I don't think anyone's violation and subsequent humiliation should be played for giggles.

By the way, is there a list of how many times and kinds of ways Troi was violated on TNG? The pregnancy episode squicked me out terribly back when it aired, and I was a teenager. I never got why she wasn't horrified at being impregnated by an alien. TNG really did treat Troi as a character badly - worse than any male character was treated.

[panyasan]

The thing with Unexpected is that it looked like the writers didn't think how their message of that episode came across. Trip is totally ignorant of the fact that the game could have hugh consequences. He is innocent and taking advantage of. If this would happened to Hoshi, everbody would have screamed murder.