Major Rant : Angst

[pdsldl]

Too many people didn't see Trip's experience as anything more than a guy who was flirting with a female getting lucky even when he wasn't aware of it. Those people obviously don't know what it's like to have something that sacred stolen from you and I hope they never do. And for the record even if you've experienced such events through a friend or acquaintance you still have no clue what it's like. I'm done with this topic as it's too close to home and a couple of the folks here have touched a nerve or two and I don't want to let my anger loose on them. Unless you've been there just be careful about trying to talk about things you really don't understand.

[Kotik]

The problem with ENT was, that Trip was (ab)used for comic relief way too often during season 1 and 2. Just look at "The Seventh". Trip is acting captain and behaves like a freakin' dolt all through the episode, while in "Cease Fire" he acts more in character. I really disliked season 2 for two reasons. First, Trip was portrayed like a southern hick clown way too often for comic relief and don't even get me started on abysmal episodes like "Night in Sickbay" or "The Seventh" with that sick Archer-worship stuff. T'Pol and Archer never had any chemistry between them. Trip was really dealt a lot of brown stuff by the writers in season 2.

On a different note: I just rewatched the greatest Trip moment of all of ENT's episodes. It's the talk between Shran and Trip during "Proving Ground" - that's the Trip I imagine. Pure and honorable

[Silverbullet]

I believe that in the Unexpeted when Trip returns with the Klingons and shows the female Engineer his pregnancy she says "I never dreamed that could happen to an alien" So what happened was accidential and inadvertant thing. Second all trip was doing was acting as host to the embryo. There was NO sex involved Apparently in her species the males acted as host to the embryo. I suppose just before it was to be born when it may have been returned to the female, The mistake was with the Humans believing that Trip got the embryo through Sex, he didn't. Since the female Engineer did not believe that such a transfer could take place with an alien species she did not ask his permission for the transfer.. In that respect he was not violated. Had she asked permission and was denied but made the transfer anyway then Trip would have been violated and Raped.

While Archer and Phlox were sympathetc T-Pol got bent all out of shape. she tore off a Strip from Trip. It was not her place to do so. Althought it was never confirmed in the episode she was the logical one who spread the word of Trip's condition although she promised not to.

If I remember correctly in DS9 to get round Nana Vistiors pregnancy the writers had her become Host to Obrions baby until just before it was born when it was transfered back to his wife. there was NO Sex involved in that transfer.

So, yes it was played as a comedy. Trip goes to an alien ship to repair the Engines where he accidently become host to an embryo. He comes back only to discover the embryo in his body, He swears he was a perfect gentleman while on the alien ship. I think the bit with the Nipples were just thrwon in to move the gag along. I still think that the Embryo would have to be transfered back to the female for birth. Since the femae Engineern did not known the transfer took place the aiens did not turn back to find the enterprise to rescue the embryo.

I am still not sure why the Klingons were intrduced in to the Episode unless it was for a bit of Archer heroics.

[pdsldl]

I believe that in the Unexpeted when Trip returns with the Klingons and shows the female Engineer his pregnancy she says "I never dreamed that could happen to an alien" So what happened was accidential and inadvertant thing. Second all trip was doing was acting as host to the embryo. There was NO sex involved Apparently in her species the males acted as host to the embryo. I suppose just before it was to be born when it may have been returned to the female, The mistake was with the Humans believing that Trip got the embryo through Sex, he didn't. Since the female Engineer did not believe that such a transfer could take place with an alien species she did not ask his permission for the transfer.. In that respect he was not violated. Had she asked permission and was denied but made the transfer anyway then Trip would have been violated and Raped.

While Archer and Phlox were sympathetc T-Pol got bent all out of shape. she tore off a Strip from Trip. It was not her place to do so. Althought it was never confirmed in the episode she was the logical one who spread the word of Trip's condition although she promised not to.

If I remember correctly in DS9 to get round Nana Vistiors pregnancy the writers had her become Host to Obrions baby until just before it was born when it was transfered back to his wife. there was NO Sex involved in that transfer.

So, yes it was played as a comedy. Trip goes to an alien ship to repair the Engines where he accidently become host to an embryo. He comes back only to discover the embryo in his body, He swears he was a perfect gentleman while on the alien ship. I think the bit with the Nipples were just thrwon in to move the gag along. I still think that the Embryo would have to be transfered back to the female for birth. Since the femae Engineern did not known the transfer took place the aiens did not turn back to find the enterprise to rescue the embryo.

I am still not sure why the Klingons were intrduced in to the Episode unless it was for a bit of Archer heroics.

What you say id true and therein lies the problem. She lied and said it was a game. Doesn't matter that she didn't know she could impregnate him she did something sexual for her species without his consent. It wasn't funny and the whole Klingon thing was ridiculous on every level Why would a responsible captain let a race of beings you know to be violent and unreasonable (the captain of that Klingon ship Reed, Hoshi, and T'Pol helped save wanted to take them over) know they were being taken advantage of then to appease them offered them technology. Why the Klingons took the holodeck technology and not the stealth technology is beyond me.

[Silverbullet]

PDSIL, why didn't Acher ask for a little payback for Trip's help in getting the alienes engines going again? Like the Stealth technology? That would have helped the Engerprise a great deal. Another example of Archers inability as a Captain.

The female Engineer said it was a game and as presented to Trip it was a game. It probably was used for the transfer of an embryo and perhaps alien Sex would have been involved but it also coud have been used exclusively as a simple game. I doubt though if Sex would be involved with the game. How would the embryo be created? Obviously by some sort of Sex between the aliens outside of the box of Pebbles. The Host need not have been the actual father of the embryo the Host may only have been the best available to host an embryo. The female Engineer may have let her guard down thinking that no transfer could take place so she did not protect the embryo from being transfered. It still boils down to Trip accidetnly getting the Embryo without any sex involved by pure accident. NO Rape,

[Aquarius]

I think it's a bit of a stretch to call it a lie. "Guess What I'm Thinking" is a game that gets played between people here on Planet Earth even now.

What DID happen, however, is that she failed to take into consideration/warn Trip that those pebbles could conduct whatever her reproductive matter is.

And, another reason I don't feel it was "rape": I don't think that for their race sticking your hands into pebbles and playing a telepathic game is what passes for sex for these people. I'm sure there are many other ways they can transfer reproductive matter to each other, and I truly believe what happened was an "accident" (for lack of a better word) because she found Trip attractive and enjoyed his attention.

I think if these people stuck their hands into pebbles and read each other's minds every time they wanted a baby, greater precautions would've been taken, or the game wouldn't have been played at all with Trip.

Just my pov. I know I'm repeating it, but then others have repeated theirs here, too.

Now, let's just be careful that this doesn't become the same circular, unproductive argument it's become before and focus on whether or not it was angsty vs. trying to define whether or not it's rape. Obviously we're never going to agree on the latter.

[pdsldl]

PDSIL, why didn't Acher ask for a little payback for Trip's help in getting the alienes engines going again? Like the Stealth technology? That would have helped the Engerprise a great deal. Another example of Archers inability as a Captain.

The female Engineer said it was a game and as presented to Trip it was a game. It probably was used for the transfer of an embryo and perhaps alien Sex would have been involved but it also coud have been used exclusively as a simple game. I doubt though if Sex would be involved with the game. How would the embryo be created? Obviously by some sort of Sex between the aliens outside of the box of Pebbles. The Host need not have been the actual father of the embryo the Host may only have been the best available to host an embryo. The female Engineer may have let her guard down thinking that no transfer could take place so she did not protect the embryo from being transfered. It still boils down to Trip accidetnly getting the Embryo without any sex involved by pure accident. NO Rape,

Helping out folks and trying to establish relationships doesn't go well if you do the tit for tat routine. It's more productive to offer assistance with no strings. More neighborly that way.

And I don't agree with the no rape routine. Sex is not a game and should never be treated as such. Anything that involves passing ones genetic material from one person to another, which it obviously did, where a life can be created constitutes sexual reproduction. And who's to say that the transfer of the light or energy or whatever it was that passed through their skin wasn't their form of sex and she just assumed she could have a little fun without suffering any consequences because he wasn't of her species. There have been many strange ways for other species to have sex on Star Trek.

Regardless they should have been more careful with something that could be interpreted that way. My 13 year old nephew (at that time) thought they had sex too and asked his mother why it was okay when his mother and after had impressed upon him that such behavior is not acceptable. And I'm done talking about this. Aquarius is right this is not the place for this and it's unlikely we will ever agree. We're coming at it from totally different experiences and perspectives.

[CX]

I believe that in the Unexpeted when Trip returns with the Klingons and shows the female Engineer his pregnancy she says "I never dreamed that could happen to an alien" So what happened was accidential and inadvertant thing.

So is getting pregnant if the condom breaks. She thought she'd "boldly go" ala Kirk and she accidentally got him pregnant in the process. It doesn't change the fact she lied to him, took advantage of him, committed a reproductive act with him, and impregnated him. Again, what if the genders had been reversed. If your response is different, then you have a double standard, and that is the issue at hand. Apparently you didn't read those tropes I linked to.

Second all trip was doing was acting as host to the embryo.

Depressingly, a lot of human women already say that about human embryos.

There was NO sex involved Apparently in her species the males acted as host to the embryo.

Just because we didn't see them get naked and do something more easily recognizable as sex doesn't mean that they weren't having sex. The fact they seem to reproduce that way kind of nails it as sex. As Marta said in STVI, "Not everyone keeps their genitals in the same place."

Since the female Engineer did not believe that such a transfer could take place with an alien species she did not ask his permission for the transfer.. In that respect he was not violated. Had she asked permission and was denied but made the transfer anyway then Trip would have been violated and Raped.

No, this is more like if you liquor someone up in order to get them to have sex with you, or otherwise take advantage of someone who doesn't know any better. All her statement tells us is that she didn't expect him to get pregnant from the "game" she played with him. The fact he did establishes the "game" as sexual in nature.

While Archer and Phlox were sympathetc

Not really. They both made jokes and laughed about it, not exactly what I'd consider sympathetic, or remotely professional for that matter.

If I remember correctly in DS9 to get round Nana Vistiors pregnancy the writers had her become Host to Obrions baby until just before it was born when it was transfered back to his wife. there was NO Sex involved in that transfer.

They contrived a situation and a surgical solution to writing in a real life pregnancy. That isn't remotely similar. In universe, do you really think Bashir would have gone through with it had Kira not agreed to it? How would you feel had she not consented and Bashir forced her to carry the O'Brien's baby, even if it was only meant to be temporary?

So, yes it was played as a comedy. Trip goes to an alien ship to repair the Engines where he accidently become host to an embryo.

More like he went to an alien ship to help fix their engines and got tricked into having sex without even realizing he was having it. Very much "dude, not funny".

He comes back only to discover the embryo in his body, He swears he was a perfect gentleman while on the alien ship. I think the bit with the Nipples were just thrwon in to move the gag along.

Which doesn't make sense given that the aliens had breasts and Trip already had nipples, but I digress.

I still think that the Embryo would have to be transfered back to the female for birth.

They're aliens, so we don't really know what process would be involved. Maybe the kid burst through the skin ala a chest-popper from Alien. We don't know. In Trip's case it probably would have involved surgery.

Since the femae Engineern did not known the transfer took place the aiens did not turn back to find the enterprise to rescue the embryo.

She had her fun and left, basically. She may not have meant him harm, but she did still take advantage of his ignorance to have sex with him, and he still got pregnant from it. Still rape.

I am still not sure why the Klingons were intrduced in to the Episode unless it was for a bit of Archer heroics.

So they could have the space bikers laugh at Trip for being pregnant. Oh, and "I can see my house from here."

The female Engineer said it was a game and as presented to Trip it was a game.

A lot of humans view sex as a game. What's your point? This is the part of it that makes it a rape, because the way she presented it, Trip didn't know he was having sex. They even wrote it into the episode by having her act evasive when Trip started to ask her more about the pebbles before sticking his fingers in there.

It probably was used for the transfer of an embryo and perhaps alien Sex would have been involved but it also coud have been used exclusively as a simple game.

Usually you don't get pregnant from playing Scrabble.

I doubt though if Sex would be involved with the game.

Of course it was involved, Trip got pregnant.

How would the embryo be created? Obviously by some sort of Sex between the aliens outside of the box of Pebbles.

Or the pebbles were simply the equivalent of a condom, and didn't work because of Trip being from a different species.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to call it a lie. "Guess What I'm Thinking" is a game that gets played between people here on Planet Earth even now.

Yeah, and sometimes it even leads to sex. Given the context though, I'd say the touch telepathy was actually a part of their sexual process. Some authors have even done as much with Vulcan characters.

What DID happen, however, is that she failed to take into consideration/warn Trip that those pebbles could conduct whatever her reproductive matter is.

So basically it was a condom that failed.

And, another reason I don't feel it was "rape": I don't think that for their race sticking your hands into pebbles and playing a telepathic game is what passes for sex for these people.

I don't know how you can see it that way given the result and the way it was played as a sex joke later on. They even had T'Pol deliver it while acting all jealous for crying out loud.

I'm sure there are many other ways they can transfer reproductive matter to each other,

And it probably involves direct physical contact between their hands. B&B's lack of understanding biology not withstanding.

and I truly believe what happened was an "accident" (for lack of a better word) because she found Trip attractive and enjoyed his attention.

Yes, she found him attractive, wanted to have sex with him, lied in order to trick him into doing it with her (counting on him not knowing any better), had her fun, and accidentally got him pregnant. How is that not rape?

I think if these people stuck their hands into pebbles and read each other's minds every time they wanted a baby, greater precautions would've been taken, or the game wouldn't have been played at all with Trip.

Or as I suggested, the box of pebbles was their version of birth control, so they could have mental sex without worrying about one of them getting pregnant in the process.

Just my pov. I know I'm repeating it, but then others have repeated theirs here, too.

I know, I've had this argument many times. Apparently neither I nor the article I found on the subject are very persuasive. Oh, BTW, this episode is actually listed as an example in the "Rape is ok when it's female on male" trope article.

Now, let's just be careful that this doesn't become the same circular, unproductive argument it's become before and focus on whether or not it was angsty vs. trying to define whether or not it's rape. Obviously we're never going to agree on the latter.

It definitely should have been angsty, given that Trip was faced with a choice a lot of women who unexpectedly become pregnant are faced with. Unfortunately TPTB decided to play everything for laughs instead.

[pdsldl]

CX you are my hero. Much better job or refuting these moronic Statements.

[Silverbullet]

One lasttpost and then I too am done.

You say Trip got impregnated. He did NOT have an egg in his body that could be fertilized, that is impregnation. He did however get a quickened embryo inserted into his bod.

Now on the alien ship there were two obvious sexes male and female, the accepted reason for two sexes is for procreaction. So if the female Engineer had an embryo in her body she had to get knocked up by one of the males. How, beats Hell out of me but it i obvious she had to be impregnaed by a male of her species to have the embryo she passed on to Trip. Trip was the Host to the embryo he did not get Pregnant in the accepted sense of he word. So, no Sex and no physical Rape. The Sex involved was between two of the Aliens one male and one female resulting in an Embryo. same as here on Earth.

There are rare cases here on Earth where a female is incapab;e of carrying a baby to term every effort to do so ended in a miscarage. However the husband and wife wanted a baby. So an Egg was taken from the wife and sperm from the husband the Egg was fertilized in a petri dish and then inerted in the womb of a surrogate mother where it attached itself to the womb wall. The baby was carried to term and delivered. Couples real baby carried by a host female until born.

So, Trip could have been accidently given an embrayo unbeknowst by the female engineer. Perhaps he may have carried it to term and it wuld be delivered by C section who knows. But he was NOT raped nor impegnated.

[Aikiweezie]

CX you are my hero. Much better job or refuting these moronic Statements.

I don't think we need to call each other "mornic" just because we disagree.

Am I "moronic" because I think Silverbullet makes good points.

Besides...its a TV show...written by people....who don't always get to think out every teeny tiny aspect and bit of morality and its connection to reality.

[pdsldl]

I give up. And I'm sorry about the moron comment but having been assaulted twice in my life has made me a little sensitive to the topic. Have no patience with those that think that just because someone didn't mean any harm it's okay. IT"S NOT.

And the embryo had it's mothers DNA not Trip's or any other males. Perhaps the males contributed by carrying the baby instead of contributing their genetic material. An embryo is an embryo and it had to have come from some transfer of genetic material from sexual contact as we define it. There was much more involved when they were telepathically linked and he got pregnant. Invading his mind without first warning him was bad enough. Unknowingly implanting your genetic material into another being is more than an accident or an oops I didn't know that could happen, especially when you've been told it was only a game. And it definitely isn't something that should be the butt of jokes.

[Silverbullet]

PDSIL, I don't remember any reference to DNA in the episode. From what little I know you cannot create an Embryo with out Male DNA here om Earth and I am asuming that the same would hold true with alien secies especialy since in the Episode there were two Xirillian sexes that suggests that each sex provided DNA for the creation of an emberyo. Trip obviously did not provide DNA for an already creaed embryo. The DNA had to come from a male Xiriian who empregnated the female Engineer.Trip was not raaped. He may have been violated because an embryo was accidently implanteed in his body without his knwledge or consent.

I am convinced that the witers wrote this a comedy without realizing that it might be seen differently by some of the viewers. Since there is 23 minutes of commercial time in an episode and 27minutes of program time that means that the viewers have to fill in the blanks and how they do it is up to each individual had the writers the time to explain their meaning of the episode it would be different.

[CX]

You say Trip got impregnated. He did NOT have an egg in his body that could be fertilized, that is impregnation. He did however get a quickened embryo inserted into his bod.

You're arguing semantics. They referred to him as being pregnant in any case, so that's what I'm going to go with. Hell, that's what they even called it on Aliens. This does not change what happened to Trip or the fact he was raped.

So, no Sex and no physical Rape. The Sex involved was between two of the Aliens one male and one female resulting in an Embryo. same as here on Earth.

No, these were aliens, and what we saw was alien sex. Trip was lied to and raped by the female engineer.

So, Trip could have been accidently given an embrayo unbeknowst by the female engineer. Perhaps he may have carried it to term and it wuld be delivered by C section who knows. But he was NOT raped nor impegnated.

This was not a planned medical procedure. Trip was a participant in a form of procreation, the exact details of which were never described. His body was violated, he did not give his consent to participate in an act of reproduction, so he was raped.

CX you are my hero. Much better job or refuting these moronic Statements.

I don't think we need to call each other "mornic" just because we disagree.

Agreed.

Am I "moronic" because I think Silverbullet makes good points.

Hmmm... How to be diplomatic here? How about just "wrong"? Does that work? Because Silverbullet is wrong. I do not question this person's intelligence, only their logic and bias.

Besides...its a TV show...written by people....who don't always get to think out every teeny tiny aspect and bit of morality and its connection to reality.

These aren't exactly small aspects of morality we're talking about here. And from one of the lines Trip mentioned about how he might have to give up his career, I'd hazard a guess that this might have actually been written as a serious episode initially, so they knew. I suspect Executive Tampering.

PDSIL, I don't remember any reference to DNA in the episode. From what little I know you cannot create an Embryo with out Male DNA here om Earth and I am asuming that the same would hold true with alien secies especialy since in the Episode there were two Xirillian sexes that suggests that each sex provided DNA for the creation of an emberyo.

Negative. Phlox specifically mentioned that the embryo was made entirely out of the female engineer's genetic material, probably in a weak attempt to address the fact that humans and aliens shouldn't be able to produce offspring because of genetic incompatibility.

Trip obviously did not provide DNA for an already creaed embryo. The DNA had to come from a male Xiriian who empregnated the female Engineer.

We don't know, it was never stated. The writer's lampshaded this by having Phlox basically just say he didn't know how it worked, and the issue was never addressed again.

Trip was not raaped.

Yeah he was.

He may have been violated because an embryo was accidently implanteed in his body without his knwledge or consent.

That's a type of rape. Just because he didn't have an object forced into an orifice doesn't mean it wasn't rape.

I am convinced that the witers wrote this a comedy without realizing that it might be seen differently by some of the viewers.

If they did, they are every bit as stupid as I've always thought they were.

And I notice you still haven't addressed the point I made about if the genders of those involved had been reversed. Same setup, but with a male alien and a female human, say Hess. What would your reaction be? That question holds for everyone who didn't see this as rape.

[Aikiweezie]

Okay then. I'll be exiting this conversation.