The Vulcan game

[Distracted]

So... what's Vulcan for "shameless and intellectually deficient teller of flagrant falsehoods"? : D

[Silverbullet]

T-Les

[WarpGirl]

Awe Silverbullet T'Les is a mom. You can't say those things about a mother. I should clarify you can't say those things about a mom who isn't abusive, alcoholic, or neglectful mother. Because I have a few of those in my family. Dis I don't get the joke.

[Silverbullet]

Warpgirl, as far as I am concerned T-Les did nothing but lie to T-Pol in the Episode Home. So I still say T-LES.

[WarpGirl]

OK that's perfectly fine but I still say that's kind of harsh to use

"shameless and intellectually deficient teller of flagrant falsehoods"

to describe a mother who was trying to look out for her daughter's intrests in a non-abusive, perfectly acceptable way for a Vulcan mother. Maybe she did lie, maybe she didn't. The show never told us outright that she did. But I still say that's kind of disrespectful to talk about a mother like that. What does it teach children and young people today? Still maybe when I watch Home I'll agree with you. But I'd still never say that about a mother who is non-abusive.

[Alelou]

You two whippersnappers already had this particular argument at least once...

[WarpGirl]

I know. Unfortunately there are a few topics that just keep coming up and nobody has anything new to say about them. That and they seem to be topics where somebody (myself included) ends up saying something that is misunderstood and people get mad. I wish there was a way to stop people misunderstanding these things so nobody gets mad and starts accusing people of stuff.

Back to T'Pol is there a Vulcan expression to describe a dishonorable person? Because I can see her saying that.

[Alelou]

Fortunately, T'Pol speaks excellent English.

Not to put down anyone who enjoys using Vulcan phrases, but these things usually require a reader to stop and go, "What?" and see if there's a language key somewhere, or perhaps to sigh slightly and read on, hoping the meaning either didn't really matter much (in which case, why bother), or was something she could guess from the context.

Good rule of thumb: Try never give your reader an opportunity to stop and go, "Say what?"

[WarpGirl]

Ooooooooooooh I found something! Ladies and gents, direct from the VLD... lunikkh ta'vik, meaning... poisoner of wells. Now on a desert planet that could be a real insult. In fact the definition states... poisoner of wells, an old Vulcan invecitive! Invecitive is defined as... vehement or violent denunciation, censure, or reproach. a railing accusation; vituperation. an insulting or abusive word or expression.

Thank you VLD and Dictonary.com! What do you think Panysan? I think it's perfect.

Alelou T'Pol may speak English, but she sure doesn't think in it. I'd say in severe distress she could revert to her native language. Most who speak a second language do. Even in ST.

And while you have a point about Vulcan language in stories, most authors kindly provide translations. When you read Louisa May Alcott you have to know a little French sometimes German because of the phrases she uses. It hasn't hurt her readers any.

[Distracted]

I like WarpGirl's suggestion. It's shorter than mine. And mine's got nothing to do with T'Les. It was a suggestion for what T'Pol might call Natalie in panyasan's scenario.

[WarpGirl]

Finally! I said something right here today.

[Alelou]

And while you have a point about Vulcan language in stories, most authors kindly provide translations. When you read Louisa May Alcott you have to know a little French sometimes German because of the phrases she uses. It hasn't hurt her readers any.

I read them all as a girl, WG. Long before I knew any French or German, but yes, I got by. Seems to me they were mostly the occasional endearment or the kind of French everybody knows, like s'il vous plait, but it's been decades upon decades since I read any Alcott.

Needing translations still takes you out of the story, unless the meaning is absolutely implicit. Thus they should be used cautiously.

Dorothy Sayers uses Latin for the very important last wedding proposal from Lord Peter Wimsey to Harriet Vane in a book whose title now escapes me, of course. So I've plowed hungrily through a number of mysteries waiting for that culminating moment, and it's in Latin and I don't get it. (All the earlier ones were in English, for God's sake!) I puzzled over it for quite some time (often Latin can be successfully guessed at, in my experience). I even tried looking it up, but those were pre-Internet days.

Eventually a colleague who was a Spanish teacher explained to me that it was a fairly obscure tense, one that you would only use when you're expecting a no. Okay, so cool, I can see where that applied, and yeah they're both smart Oxford types. But would it have been so awful to put, "Don't suppose you'll marry me?" (or whatever it should translate to -- I forget that now too). So that her non-Oxford-educated readers could enjoy the moment without going, "Huh?"

[WarpGirl]

Still, (and this is just me) I find that when your characters have another language in their lives, you are more pulled into a story when you understand how they use it and how it affects them. In the books Eight Cousins, and Rose In Bloom Alcott uses Scottish! Now an 11 year old who has no Scottish relatives living, and has no knowledge of the language won't get it. But it added to the story. Also here it's a little different, you have links if somebody doesn't translate for you. Which I think is rude, but you still have access to find out what somebody is trying to say right there. So I don't think it's making anything hard for the reader. Or taking them out of the story.

[Kotik]

Alelou T'Pol may speak English, but she sure doesn't think in it. I'd say in severe distress she could revert to her native language. Most who speak a second language do. Even in ST.

That's not neccessarily true. I speak English and Russian as 2nd and 3rd language and I mainly swear in Russian for several reasons

a) It confuses the hell out of anyone who happens to hear it.
b) The Russians have a lot more colorful phrases - most would make a trucker blush like a schoolgirl.
c) It's not readily apparent to anyone overhearing it that I'm actually cussing a bluestreak

I also think and dream a lot in English. That's probably, because I've been working as an IT contractor for a decade now and most clients are big international companies. In most projects the "official language" was English.

Can get quite confusing actually. For 4 years I was speaking English at work, German everywhere else and Russian at home with the missus. Can't count how often I riddled the daylights out of a poor shop assistant by stating my orders in the wrong language

[enterprikayak]

b) The Russians have a lot more colorful phrases - most would make a trucker blush like a schoolgirl.

Okay, you can't just toss that out there and not give an example.

You know spolier code?

Code: Select all

 You write out the 2 tags:  [spoiler] [/spoiler] and put the Russian swearing translated into English in between the two tags, and voila!

SPOILER!!!:

It looks like this

and so won't offend anyone who doesn't wanna look.

Now let's hear some Russian trash-talk! (I love translations into English...they're so fun!)