T'Pol's Un-Vulcan Like Behavior

[Asso]

I don't understand.
T'Pol seems to me so logical in her choices, so Vulcan. (Well, maybe if she were been a little less ambiguous with Trip! )
I mean: doesn't a Vulcan, because he/she is a Vulcan, chose and pursue his/her path?
Being Vulcan doesn't mean, for me, being equalized.
And, once again - and I ask for your pardon, if I underline this once more - in what are Vulcans different from Humans? If I'm not mistaken, in their rigour, in the way they handle their emotions (emotions, that's a fact, that they have).
Frankly, if I go with my thought to the whole ST, I see only a more or less great amount of more o less intelligent or stupid attitudes (feelers, ridges, skin colour and some other stuff apart) which try to make as aliens the Aliens.
And some diversities of behaviour which are not different from the diversities we can see between the different people who live on Earth.
That's obvious, on the other hand, because all these Aliens were thought by Humans, and - logically - Humans can't really conceive Aliens, because they are not Aliens.
So, the way all the writers (all of them, not only the authors of ST) use to describe Aliens is what I wrote above: feelers, ridges, skin colour, strange behaviours etc, etc.
But all these things are the reflex of what we are.
That's the reason because of which I'm very cautious about "Vulcan way" or Human way" or "Andorian way"...
In reality, we are simply talking about different behaviours which are the same behaviours of us, a little modified, and - not infrequently - distorted, sometimes to such an extent that they resound factitious and contrived.

[WarpGirl]

Let's see the only ways I found T'Pol's behavior UnVucan were... The TD, seducing Trip THE WAY she did, (not necessarily that she seduced him) and not objecting more when Archer was being an idiot. Yes there was some dialog that I found bad, but not really what she was saying but how she was saying it. I only found her way too emotional when she was drugged up, so that wasn't really a problem outside of half of Season 3.

But as for her sticking up for what is right, having her own thoughts and views on life. To me that isn't a rebel Vulcan, because Spock did, Tuvok did, Sarek did. And I contend that Sarek was A LOT more emotional than T'Pol. The fact that the writers of ENT made that individuality "a crime" in this part of Vulcan history made me believe the system was UnVulcan not T'Pol.

[Asso]

Let's see the only ways I found T'Pol's behavior UnVucan were... The TD, seducing Trip THE WAY she did, (not necessarily that she seduced him) and not objecting more when Archer was being an idiot. Yes there was some dialog that I found bad, but not really what she was saying but how she was saying it. I only found her way too emotional when she was drugged up, so that wasn't really a problem outside of half of Season 3.

... seducing Trip THE WAY she did...
Oh, ahem... there are things which are universal.

[pdsldl]

But on Vulcan being an individual was seen as wrong. All the flashbacks or references by Spock to his childhood spoke of his being ridiculed and teased because he was different, had emotions. They were supposed to let logic rule. Even when Surak's real teaching came to light. Vulcans were supposed to be seeking to suppress their emotions. Some even eliminated all of them. They spent years separated from their families for duty. Underwent training to do so. (Wasn't Tuvok compelled to undergo some ritual to stop his romantic feelings/attachment to a Vulcan girl from interfering with his ability to think logically) Emotions influence humans and are a powerful driving force to what makes us individuals in the way we think and view the world. Without them you tend to get a more uniform logical worldview as I think the Vulcans did. They may have accepted diversity in other species, I'm just not sure how well they did that in their own culture.

And Asso I agree jealousy is universal and for T'Pol it had to be twice as bad because she didn't know how to deal with it and I can't fault her for getting the idea that sex was the way to a human males heart. There are billion dollar businesses built on that premise.

[WarpGirl]

But if you look at Surak's teachings you'll find that being an individual isn't supposed to be seen as wrong. Ma etek natyan-teretuhr lau etek shetau weh-lo'uk do tum t'on- We have differences, May we together, become greater than the sum of both of us! That's not just when interacting with other spieces. IDIC isn't just for intergalactic uses. Yes when it comes to emotions strict control is required, but individual's control vary just like any other individuals. Also Kohlinar IS NOT a reqirement. People do choose not to go through with it and they are not ostricized, by society as a whole. Only the inevitable bigots. So in that light T'Pol is merely and individual.

[Silverbullet]

Perhaps T-Pol was simply Brainwashed by Vulcan society? When she boarded Enterprise after serving for a year in San francisco she was already starting to resist this Brainwashing. Her continual fighting her feelings for Trip revealed her turmoil with it. She couldn't completely break free but was desperately tryng to, wanting to become an individual with freedom of choice as Humans had. She noted that in Breakng the Ice, Humans had freedom of choice, vulcans didn't they were bound by traditinos, customs and society. which is why staying on Enterprise forcing the parents to break the engagement with Koss was such a huge step in her life. The start of her road to personal freedom from her society.

[WarpGirl]

Well like I said I don't think she wanted to break from her society. She just disagreed with the corrupt parts. My objection comes from the idea that she didn't want to be herself. And Jolene Blalock had the exact same objections.

[Silverbullet]

Warpgirl, T-POL DID want to be herself. she felt constricted by her traditions, customs and society especially in regards to her feelings for Trip. This would be unacceptable to Vucan society. This probably was at the root of her ambivilance over Trip. Her mother certainly did not like her relationship with Trip at first. T-Pol was strugggling to be herself free from the shackles of vulcan thought that bound her to a lifestyle she didn't want anymore she had cast her lot with HUmans. Trip certainly if she would just admit that to herself.

[Asso]

I'm happy I found a Silverbullet here!
Being one only ... it is difficult, being at least two... it can be easier.

[WarpGirl]

Well I tend to believe how Trek actors see their characters more than the writers. So JB's interviews really struck a chord with me. Her take on her character made more sense to me than TPTB.

Asso When have you ever been alone? You really haven't.

[pdsldl]

Vulcans did not encourage individual rights and freedoms they were bound by rituals and a culture that prided itself on being unemotional and in control. Even during Spock's time. He broke with his culture when he joined Starfleet and alienated himself from his father and most of the rest of Vulcan. Whenever he had interactions with other Vulcans they were strained at the very best.

And what the IDIC represented may have been the ideal but not necessarily what they practiced. We have 'In God We Trust' all over our money etc... yet we have become more and more of a secular society. That's what I always saw as the biggest struggle for Vulcans. To find the balance between logic and emotions. They were so concerned with what they had been in the past that they went to the extreme and attempted to suppress all emotions and after the Kirshara was discovered they tried to ease up but their natures made that difficult.

[WarpGirl]

I think we have a different idea of individualism.

[Asso]

...Asso When have you ever been alone? You really haven't.

SIGH. In relief.

[honeybee]

I certainly appreciate having you around, Asso! Who else reviews every chapter of everyone one of my stories. You've made me feel beyond welcomed!

[Aquarius]

But she's not a true blue Vulcan by the standards you set. She's emotional and she experiments with emotions and not meditating, resigns from VHC, etc... And it doesn't matter that the government is corrupt she and most of the rest of Vulcan believed in what they were taught. Many of the things she did were not acceptable under any Vulcan standards in any time period and she would have been seen as a rebel by her own people.

I agree completely.