T'Pol's Un-Vulcan Like Behavior

[Aquarius]

I think we have a different idea of individualism.

Either you're going along with the herd, or you're not.

[WarpGirl]

That's your opinion and you're perfectly right to have it. But to me life isn't about putting people into catagories, real or fictional. People are complex, they are not one thing or another. I don't agree with you and I never will. Knowing everyone's thoughts has been equal parts inspiring and mystifying. But I think lables like "following the heard" and "rebel" are gross oversimplifications. What was V'Lar? What was Soval? How would you catagorize them? Just because they kept their private views private doesn't mean they didn't have their own individualism.

[pdsldl]

V'Lar struck me as an independent woman. But she had been a diplomat for years and years so would have been exposed to many off-worlders and most likely grew from that exposure just as T'Pol was doing being with humans. I even remember wondering if she would do well living back on Vulcan. Soval appeared to be one that did what his government asked for the most part until his logic said it was not moral to do so because Vulcan was being put at risk by V'Las. The Vulcan were highly ritualistic and very secretive about their culture. When Kirk and McCoy went with Spock during Amok Time and at other times they were on Vulcan there were constant objections to them being present for any ceremonies etc... Spock had to insist it was his right for them to be there or sneak them in. When things are held that tightly within a society it tends to make them lean towards conformity. If this weren't true then groups like the Syrrans and Kovs would have been welcomed on their home planets. Don't know that the Vosh Katur were ever welcomed on Vulcan and unless they were I can't see how the IDIC can be seen as was anything more than a ideal they were attempting to obtain.

[WarpGirl]

But V'Lar was also a woman GREATLY esteemed not just by the Vulcan government but by the people. T'Pol was still a young girl when they first met, not in the VHC. While Vulcans are private it doesn't mean they're like the Borg. And the V'tosh Katur were more than just "rebels" they were asserting their individuality in ways that harmed others. There's a big difference. I'm not saying that People like Kov intended to harm anyone, but the techniques that they used were dangerous. Not meditating screws up the balance in a Vulcan's brain. I think they either said that in TOS or VOY I can't be sure which.

Soval made it clear in the Vulcan Arc That he has disagreed with the corrupt VHC for years and had to hide his views so he could do some good. So yeah bad government, who tried to make it's people like the Borg but that isn't the Vulcan way. As much as I hated Archer carrying Surak's Katra I LOVED Surak. And while Syrran wasn't too keen on T'Pol or Archer, I got the sense Surak liked her. But I doubt he'd approve of the drugs. Everything else basically he would have accepted.

[pdsldl]

With the exception of Tolaris (whose behavior had nothing to do with the practices of the V'Tosh Katur) the rest of the V'Tosh Katur seemed fine. We have no proof that the harm they supposedly caused was anything more than the governments propaganda just like Pa'Nar Syndrome to keep their people in line. It may have been corrupt but millions of Vulcans drank the koolaid for many years.

[Aquarius]

With the exception of Tolaris (whose behavior had nothing to do with the practices of the V'Tosh Katur) the rest of the V'Tosh Katur seemed fine. We have no proof that the harm they supposedly caused was anything more than the governments propaganda just like Pa'Nar Syndrome to keep their people in line. It may have been corrupt but millions of Vulcans drank the koolaid for many years.

Precisely. Your average Vulcan was probably so indoctrinated with what the government deemed "acceptable" and "unacceptable," shrouded in logic, they wouldn't know anything was up, especially if critical pieces of evidence were withheld, like...oh...Surak's true teachings?

[WarpGirl]

Yes that is possible. But like I said I take all my Vulcan knowledge and pick apart ENT with it. It certainly wouldn't have been recomended by a DR. in the 23rd century. And all we really saw of the V'tosh Katur were the polar opposites of Kov and Tolaris. So a complete judgement isn't really possible. I always regretted that they didn't expand on it.

Precisely. Your average Vulcan was probably so indoctrinated with what the government deemed "acceptable" and "unacceptable," shrouded in logic, they wouldn't know anything was up, especially if critical pieces of evidence were withheld, like...oh...Surak's true teachings?

You just proved my point about why I don't see T'Pol as a rebel Aquarius. After Surak's true techings were found, T'Pol chose to live by them. And nowhere did it say you can't have a human mate.

[Aquarius]

This is what passes for "normal" on Vulcan during this part of T'Pol's life, so by their standard, it ISN'T un-Vulcan Like; T'Pol is the one going against the grain, so against the backdrop of the society she was raised in, yes she IS a rebel, despite the fact that she had a hand in making it better and kicking off the change that resulted in the society that you call Vulcan-like. That's like comparing our society to how it was in the 1800s or something--attitudes change, priorities change, our sense of right and wrong changes, but we were no less human then than we are now.

You may not see T'Pol as a rebel, but that doesn't mean she isn't one by conventional (as in, generally accepted) definitions.

[WarpGirl]

What can I say? "Convetional, and generally accepted" have never done a thing for me. Besides the Vulcan society T'Pol is supposedly rebeling against is full of Romulans. Yeah they're very Vulcan like. I can see how she's so rebelous given that knowledge. I'm sorry if that's too snarky, but I like seeing things as a whole. So I take into consideration that, Romulans are crawling about, and Surak's teachings are not being taught. And since Surak's teachings are the basis for Vulcan society in ENT's time, and the future. What is she really rebeling against? Not being a true Vulcan that's for sure.

I admit she did some things in the show I found downright horrifying. But she was also mentally impaired because she was telepathically raped. pa'nar might not have been what the VHC deemed it... An incurable disease, but it did cause havoc with her health and mental abilities. Don't believe me, watch Stigma again. T'Pol being sick was very real.

[Aquarius]

I've seen "Stigma" many, many times. No one's saying she wasn't sick.

I'm just saying you're measuring her by a standard that doesn't exist for them yet. And even then, as was so aptly pointed out by someone earlier, even in Spock's time Vulcans haven't come THAT far because "different" obviously isn't good. Sarek has a prestigious position but seriously, I can see them deciding he's a pervert for marrying a Human woman, but figuring that he'd be mostly out of the way if he was the ambassador to Earth, and that the human wife may be an advantage there, although a distasteful one. Such a thing would be much worse for T'Pol in her time, I think.

As for "conventionally accepted", it's often how things work whether we like it or not. There has to be general agreement on what things mean, otherwise they are (obviously) meaningless. (Please thank my linguistics professor for that thought.) Sucks but true. You don't have to see her as a rebel if you don't want to, but since she fits the generally accepted definition of one, I don't think you're going to change many minds among those who feel she is something of a rebel. Also, there are varying degrees of perceived rebel-ness.

[WarpGirl]

I'm not trying to change anybody's mind. Why should I if I'm not willing to change mine? But you people make no sense to me. And that's fine I like it (mostly) but I do not get it at all.

[Aquarius]

That's okay. You make no sense to me either.

[WarpGirl]

Simple. Vulcans being infiltrated by Romulans, screw up entire generation of Vulcan kids (T'Pol) she doesn't think its so hot. But in actuality her society and culture is screwed up at this point. So she's not UnVulcan. See couldn't be easier.

[Aquarius]

You know it's screwed up. I know it's screwed up.

But the most important thing here, THEY didn't know it was screwed up. And the ones who suspected either had to drink the Kool Aid in order to preserve the status quo, or face being ostracized. You're judging whether or not she was a rebel by how things were "supposed" to work; those of us who say she was a rebel are judging this by how they ACTUALLY worked. Your Vulcan In The Stret likely didn't know their government was being run by Romulan infiltrators. This also couldn't have happened overnight, so there was lots and lots of time for ideas that were actually contrary to Surak's way to sneak their way in. Appearances are deceiving and all that. So compared to how the average Vulcan viewed what was normal and acceptable, T'Pol went against the grain.

See? Couldn't be easier.

[WarpGirl]

Nope still don't get it. I look at ST and I look at ALL of it together. It's one huge mural, not individual snapshots.