The Book of Eli Reviews (spoilers in code)

[Alelou]

My wussy Christianity is about three shades deeper than my childhood agnosticism. It used to be much more solid, but I've definitely felt it greying out over the years -- especially the more I've learned about scripture and the history of of the early church. I still prefer it to a lack of any faith, but I'd have to say I am deeply skeptical of any organized religious institutions run by human beings at this point in my life. And frankly, I often wonder how well-educated clerics can do what they do, though my favorite priests have always been pretty open about the difficulties of faith and about the raw politics that go into the institutional side of it.

[justTripn]

As a card carrying agnostic, I tend to agree. I have a few friends who are Christopher Hitchens/Richard Dawkins-loving new atheists and they can be just as closed minded and irritating as your garden variety religious fanatic. I also know some religious people who are open minded, questioning and willing to admit that problems in organized religion exist.

Yeah! I'm another card-carrying agnostic. (Former fundamentalist Christian.) Took a long time for me to come out of the closet with that one. In fact I had to be outted by my husband. (As a newspaper columnists, he accidentally put in in a column!!) Best thing that could have happened.

[Elessar]

I try to remember to treat the supernatural the same way that physicists treat science -- with an overwhelming sense of awe, wonder, and humility. There are so many things we don't understand about the Universe, that being certain of anything that... HUGE, is beyond arrogant, it's just foolish. I can understand being skeptical... being doubtful... but being certain... Even scientists are never certain.

[Aikiweezie]

As a card carrying agnostic, I tend to agree. I have a few friends who are Christopher Hitchens/Richard Dawkins-loving new atheists and they can be just as closed minded and irritating as your garden variety religious fanatic. I also know some religious people who are open minded, questioning and willing to admit that problems in organized religion exist.

I agree - fanaticism is fanaticism! Dennis Miller hosted a debate between Christopher Hitches and a Christian minister on his radio show today and the minister was much more open-minded. I always find it strange when "Christopher Hitchens/Richard Dawkins-loving new atheists" end discussions admitting that they really don't know anything for sure. They way I see it NO ONE knows much of anything for sure and it is arrogant to think that you do. Regardless of what one thinks about religion/athiesm creationism/Darwinism Ben Stein's Expelled is a thought provoking movie about the subject.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

Maybe that's why I happened to put an Angelina Jolie post here - she's a goddess...?

And to make this post legit and on topic: Haven't seen the movie. I don't think it's premiered here yet.

[enterprikayak]

(Guts or a huge amount of anger at The God You've Decided Isn't There.)

This is perfect. I agree.

[justTripn]

On the other hand, given that we don't put down people who are absolutely certain there is a God of a specific type, we should probably give the atheists the same curtesy.

[honeybee]

Oh absolutely. And nobody should be able to get away with outright heinous behavior because they say "God says I have to do this" - I'm talking about marrying five twelve year olds, razor blading girls private parts, flying planes into buildings, declaring Haitians in league with the devil. . . .you know the drill.

[Alelou]

On the other hand, given that we don't put down people who are absolutely certain there is a God of a specific type.

Actually, I DO put down those people, IF because of their certainty in their God they feel entitled to mess with my freedom or my life or the lives of anyone else. Jihadist terrorists fall into this category, after all. Similarly, people who think the constitutional separation of church and state is getting in the way of what they feel ought to be a "Christian nation" scare the hell out of me.

I'd have the same problem with militant atheists trying to take away people's right to worship as they choose, not that this is much of a likelihood in this country. It certainly has happened before, however. Communist governments drive religion underground in their zeal to protect their citizens from "the opiate of the masses." And dictators often try to make a religious cult out of themselves.

[enterprikayak]

My thinking is I just don't see how anyone can put their foot down and say they know for sure what's going on in the other room. Either way. How can anyone be positive? Especially positive enough to crash a plane. I have a lot of guesses in my mind, and if I had to put my money on it, I'd put my money on my guesses. But I sure wouldn't call any of my guesses "for sure".

I suppose I belong to the religion of "I Don't Know".

[Distracted]

There are some things that can be objectively proven and some that one must choose to believe without definitive proof. The existence of a "First Cause" was argued logically by Thomas Aquinas, but now that physicists have come out with a theory about how the universe could just accidentally come into being out of nothing at all (I don't understand it really, but then I'm not a rabidly atheistic theoretical physicist) I suppose now we're all left with the unfortunately illogical conclusion that people believe what they choose to believe. And as long as people who believe differently from me don't try to kill, steal from, or abuse me or mine because of our differences of belief, I'm okay with that. Unfortunately, since the dawn of human history people have had a hard time with that concept. Thus we have things like wars, crusades, pogroms, the Inquisition, jihad, the Holocaust, the KKK, gay bashing, the Salem witch trials...

[justTripn]

Agreed with all of the above. But if someone wants to be absolutely sure there is a God without harming others and someone else wants to be absolutely sure there isn't a God without impeding on the rights of others, fine. I totally understand how good, rationale people could come to either conclusion.

[Aikiweezie]

I just wanted to compliment my fellow T&Ters. Discussions of this nature almost always turn ugly, accusatory, etc., and it's refreshing to be able to have rational, respectful discussions.

You guys ROCK!!!!!!

Sorry for the OT.

[Elessar]

There are some things that can be objectively proven and some that one must choose to believe without definitive proof. The existence of a "First Cause" was argued logically by Thomas Aquinas, but now that physicists have come out with a theory about how the universe could just accidentally come into being out of nothing at all (I don't understand it really, but then I'm not a rabidly atheistic theoretical physicist)

There are fewer rabidly atheistic theoretical physicists than you'd think. I'm sure there're 1 or 2 prominent ones, but that's IMO what makes them prominent -- "certainty" is contrary to the spirit of the scientific pursuit of truth, and anybody who thinks they're "certain" of anything that large...

[enterprikayak]

I just wanted to compliment my fellow T&Ters. Discussions of this nature almost always turn ugly, accusatory, etc., and it's refreshing to be able to have rational, respectful discussions.

You guys ROCK!!!!!!

Sorry for the OT.

Yeah, a lot of poeple who were shite-disturbers are gone now. Of course *I'm* still here, but...I'm being good.