Did T'Pol NEED the Trellium D?

[Alelou]

There's a difference between being in denial about what you really want vs. what you think you should want -- it's not that uncommon -- and being delusional. T'Pol is not delusional. T'Pol just needs to grow up and take responsibility for her true feelings. Takes her awhile to get there, and she certainly has some setbacks along the way, but I have every reason to believe she was going to get there eventually.

That she managed to keep Trip hanging on by his fingernails (most of the time) through that agonizing process is amazing, though. I defy any other guy in the universe to put up with that much crap.

That's part of what makes that finale so infuriating -- he sure as hell deserved more than "I'm going to miss you."

[justTripn]

Don't worry Alelou. It was only a hologram. It was only a hologram . . .

I just realized that in my other Sci Fi show, Farscape (I'm up to season 4), John and Aryen get together because the whole crew is drunk on some sort of radiation from a special star they are caught near. (And I told you the science never makes any sense in Farscape.) Oh well . . .

[WarpGirl]

In my defense I did say it seemed you felt that way. Well I'm sorry but it takes two to tango. Trip wasn't much help in being clear about what he wanted, considering the cultural differences they have regarding a stable relationship (Vulcans don't even date at all) I sure saw him being just as evasive and contrary. And it wasn't always because of her evasiveness he managed to do plenty of damage himself. He's no saint. And I hate "saint Trip" as much as I hate "saint Booth."

I really don't think T'Pol ever denied who she was or what she wanted to herself! To others, she did but I refuse to believe she was not self aware of her feelings and wants. Could she understand why she wanted and felt those things? Well in some ways I think she did. But I'm certain she thought they were wrong. In any case I certainly would classify T'Pol's issues as "crap". Who doesn't have a truckload of issues in any relationship? I know mine is full of them. And like I said Trip was not the easiest guy to get along with either.

But you are right about *the_abomination*. They both deserved better.

[pdsldl]

In my defense I did say it seemed you felt that way. Well I'm sorry but it takes two to tango. Trip wasn't much help in being clear about what he wanted, considering the cultural differences they have regarding a stable relationship (Vulcans don't even date at all) I sure saw him being just as evasive and contrary. And it wasn't always because of her evasiveness he managed to do plenty of damage himself. He's no saint. And I hate "saint Trip" as much as I hate "saint Booth."

I really don't think T'Pol ever denied who she was or what she wanted to herself! To others, she did but I refuse to believe she was not self aware of her feelings and wants. Could she understand why she wanted and felt those things? Well in some ways I think she did. But I'm certain she thought they were wrong. In any case I certainly would classify T'Pol's issues as "crap". Who doesn't have a truckload of issues in any relationship? I know mine is full of them. And like I said Trip was not the easiest guy to get along with either.

But you are right about *the_abomination*. They both deserved better.

I disagree that T'Pol knew what she wanted. She asked her other self in E2 what if her heart didn't know what it wanted. The reply was it or she would. She wasn't supposed to fall in love. he was supposed to wed/bond with Koss and from what she said she didn't even know exactly what that meant. Bonds were all wrapped up in stories and myths. She may have had flashes of knowing she was in love but having absolutely no experience and most certainly no example to go by as Vulcans keep intimacy private she most likely doubted she really knew what she was feeling.
As for Trip he was trapped on a starship with the woman he was in love with who kept rejecting him. His options were limited and just getting over it wasn't one of them. He finally left and that made matters worse so what exactly if you test the waters several times and get shot down then leave but that only worsens your situation what is one to do? And who ever said trip was a saint? He was an emotional human male whose hormones interfered with his brain function because he was in love with a confused and lost Vulcan who needed to mature into her feelings.

[Alelou]

If you give a guy whiplash with mixed messages, I think he has the right to call it "crap," although to give our boy some credit, he didn't. (I'm not as nice as he is.)

And you are correct, he was no saint either -- he did protect himself quite a bit by being evasive. (How many times on this site have we debated what might have happened if he'd just come right out and told her how he felt, as Sim did?) However, I do think he had good reason to protect himself in this case.

But ... um ... Trip not easy to get along with? Oh, man. That I just plain have to disagree with.

[justTripn]

As for Trip he was trapped on a starship with the woman he was in love with who kept rejecting him. His options were limited and just getting over it wasn't one of them. He finally left and that made matters worse so what exactly if you test the waters several times and get shot down then leave but that only worsens your situation what is one to do? And who ever said trip was a saint? He was an emotional human male whose hormones interfered with his brain function because he was in love with a confused and lost Vulcan who needed to mature into her feelings.

I agree with pdsldl. Nice summary.

I agree with Alelou that T'Pol was in deep denial even to herself. In that sense she didn't really know what she felt. There would have been alot of guilt attached to feeling something for Trip because of her culture, so as long as it was possible she would try to frame her feelings in some way acceptable her Vulcan self. When she finally has to admit things to herself, she still doesn't want to confess it all to Trip or let on to coworkers.

And WarpGirl, I married a friend I had known for 7 years, and for two of those years it was a long distance relationship. Actually in my case we were on opposite sides of the Earth, come to think of it. In the days before e-mail.

[WarpGirl]

To each his own. But Just for the sake of talking because I am bored out of my mind... In E2 (which I hated anyway) I thought T'Pol meant she didn't know whether a perminent relationship would work with Trip because she wasn't going to have the same set of circumstances as her double. I did not take that to mean she had no clue she loved him. I mean come on they weren't going to get stuck back in time, so it was a completely different life they would live. It's not as if E2 TnT had a lot to deal with when it came to dealing with Starfleet Vulcan and everything else. They caught an easy break comparatively speaking.

I guess I just give T'Pol more credit than most. If she truly was a screwed up lost little girl with no clue about herself, she wouldn't be the extraordinary woman Trip loved. And yes I believe that Trip was very hard to get along with at times, and not just because of T'Pol's behavior. And I sometimes think people treat him like a siant!

jT Rock on girl!

[Silverbullet]

In E2, if you accept that the other Enterprise had been thrown back in time that meant the people on that Enterprise had lived the same life as our Enterprise until they entered the Worm Hole. If that is so, both T-Pol's Seduced Trip, both helped him through his sisters death and both had that Erotic Shower dream. The older T-Pol would know exactly how the Younger one felt and acted because she had done the same until her ship was thorwn back in time. When the two talked they were at almost the same point although the older t-Pol had lived longer and had a different life after being thrown back in time. she would know that the younger T-Pol really did love Trip but was unable to admit to herself much less Trip. that is why she knew that one day T-Pol would wake up to that fact and then her Heart would know what it wanted.

I still wish the writers had both Trip and T-Pol talk to the old T-Pol. she might have knocked a little snese into their heads.

[WarpGirl]

I don't think you understood my post. Even though E2 T'Pol was talking about RU T'Pol's present, the TD seduction and all of that... I believed RU T'Pol was concerned about the different future she would have.

[crystalswolf]

After thinking about it for a while, I'm going to throw this out there. I think the neuropressure blind-sided both of them with deeper emotions, perhaps even building the foundation for the bond. We know it's an intimate act but we don't know which relationships are considered appropriate, why and why not. For all we know, it's only intended for couples to help create and reinforce a full bond quickly.

They were attracted to each other before neuropressure (at least I think so) but all of that skin contact had to have some effect on her. Perhaps dropping her telepathic and emotional guards enough to get to know each other faster than dates ever could and strengthening their attraction into full blown love quickly. Humans have trouble coping with the complicated feelings of love, can you imagine under those circumstances? And just think how a Vulcan would react to them without marriage or an already established semi-bond.

Remember, he thought she was making sexual advances and was ready to walk (run) out of her quarters before neuropressure while she seemed irritated by the idea. TD just made her act on the deeper emotions she hadn't sorted through yet. He, on the other hand being human, had no problem with acting on emotions he hadn't sorted through yet.

Just some thoughts that popped into my head.

[Aikiweezie]

I think the neuropressure blind-sided both of them with deeper emotions, perhaps even building the foundation for the bond. We know it's an intimate act but we don't know which relationships are considered appropriate, why and why not. For all we know, it's only intended for couples to help create and reinforce a full bond quickly.

My thoughts exactly.

They were attracted to each other before neuropressure (at least I think so) but all of that skin contact had to have some effect on her. Perhaps dropping her telepathic and emotional guards enough to get to know each other faster than dates ever could and strengthening their attraction into full blown love quickly. Humans have trouble coping with the complicated feelings of love, can you imagine under those circumstances? And just think how a Vulcan would react to them without marriage or an already established semi-bond.

Ditto, again.

Remember, he thought she was making sexual advances and was ready to walk (run) out of her quarters before neuropressure while she seemed irritated by the idea.

Don't forget what Trip said when he thought she was making advances, "Normlly I'd jump at the chance." So obviously he was attracted to her. I think he was blind-sided by the possibility, though.

[WarpGirl]

No CW I think you have some great points. Personally, I think the neuropressure gets a ton more credit that it deserves for everything. In reality it was a way to get the two hotest people on the show in as few clothes as possible. However I agree it did play a big part in things. I never got the sense that either Trip or T'Pol would have taken it upon themselves to be so intimate at that point, without the health crises. That's why I said things moved too darn fast for me, before Lizzy died they were becoming good friends and there was attraction, but neither of them were thinking in terms of intimacy, or even the possibility of a romantic relationship. Sorry Trip might have had some "isn't it a shame I can't date her" moments but it wasn't something he was actively persuing.

I think the fact that T'Pol was willing to do it including "using a ploy" as Alelou described it, had much more meaning with T'Pol knowing how much she cared about him. I defy anyone to say she would have found it "logical" to do it for Archer, Malcolm, Travis, or Phlox.

About the Trell-D the conclusion I've come too is, it didn't open her eyes to her emotions, bring them within reach, allow her to accsess them. All it did was force her to react. That's it. No grand revelation, no open doors, or angel's chorus. Her control was in shreds, she was impaired, she made a mess.

[Alelou]

After thinking about it for a while, I'm going to throw this out there. I think the neuropressure blind-sided both of them with deeper emotions, perhaps even building the foundation for the bond. We know it's an intimate act but we don't know which relationships are considered appropriate, why and why not. For all we know, it's only intended for couples to help create and reinforce a full bond quickly.

They were attracted to each other before neuropressure (at least I think so) but all of that skin contact had to have some effect on her. Perhaps dropping her telepathic and emotional guards enough to get to know each other faster than dates ever could and strengthening their attraction into full blown love quickly. Humans have trouble coping with the complicated feelings of love, can you imagine under those circumstances? And just think how a Vulcan would react to them without marriage or an already established semi-bond.

Remember, he thought she was making sexual advances and was ready to walk (run) out of her quarters before neuropressure while she seemed irritated by the idea. TD just made her act on the deeper emotions she hadn't sorted through yet. He, on the other hand being human, had no problem with acting on emotions he hadn't sorted through yet.

That makes sense to me.

If you want to fall in love with someone you're not already in love with, the fastest way to do that is probably to do loving things for him (or her). Neuropressure/massage is about as intimate as you can get short of having sex and arguably more generous in its focus on the other person. In fact, marriage counselors often suggest this sort of thing for couples who are struggling with diminished feelings for each other.

Now imagine you already have an illogical attraction to that person ... and he has a really nice musculature that holds up damned well once the shirt is off ... and you've gotten used to the way he smells... and he doesn't tease you nearly as much one-on-one as he does out in public... I think even the most logical Vulcan is going to have a hard time resisting.

[WarpGirl]

Well yeah I guess the question is would the mess have happened without the neuropressure. My guess would be nope.

[Alelou]

So, Trellium-D is not absolutely required, but neuropressure is. Is that consensus?

Of course, if you look back, people were writing about these two jumping each other right from the early first season... there was enough chemistry that you figured all it would take was some little spark/excuse/alien pathogen/deserted planet/ratings sweep period desperation (was Harbinger aired during sweeps?).

I'd make the argument, though, that the chances of them actually forming an emotional bond that lasted (not Vulcan mating bond, just emotional attachment in the way we think of it) were much higher after Season 3's emotional intimacies and mutual dependence.