Did T'Pol NEED the Trellium D?

[Aquarius]

Ooooooooooooh, okay. Gotcha. I never saw that airing. My first exposure to that episode was on a SyFy channel viewers' choice marathon, just days before I ended up here. And I have to be honest and say that that episode, that scene, are a big part of why I went out looking for a place like this.

One thing at a time: gotta get closer to finishing my bachelors first!

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

As I said before, T'Pol didn't need Trell-D to fall for Trip. However, what happened in Harbinger would not have happened without it. I'd like to think that an non-trelled-up T'Pol would have opted for a steamy kiss and nothing more. That would probably also have gotten their relationship off to a better start, with no day after scene. What a lost opportunity.

I also think that neuro-pressure wasn't needed for them to get together (as much as I like seeing T'Pol in her silk jammies). If it had been up to me i would have had T'Pol helping Trip to cope with his loss and his sleep problems through Vulcan meditation. They could even keep the candles and romantic setting.

[WarpGirl]

KTR You sure know how to make a person feel less lonely.

[honeybee]

I like your take, too, KTR. I always thought meditation would have made far more sense - and T'Pol still could have been in her sexy Vulcan pjs.

But without the Trellium, sex might have happened - but later and under better circumstances.

[WarpGirl]

Well I think all of us agree that TnT are for a lack of a better phrase "meant to be" otherwise what are we doing here? However I doubt consumation would have been in Season 3 without the Trell D. Possibly after Bound, Terra Prime either of them would have made a lot of sense to me.

[crystalswolf]

Here's a question. In the history of Trek, have they ever had a Vulcan-nonVulcan relationship develop naturally? From what I remember, it's always pon-farr, infection (which may cause pon-farr), and finally neuropressure (which involves Vulcan telepathy at some level). I don't know if they've ever described the courtship (if any) of Amanda Grayson and Sarek.

I have to wonder if Trek writers were afraid that fans would not accept a Vulcan just naturally entering into a such a relationship.

[Aquarius]

I like your take, too, KTR. I always thought meditation would have made far more sense - and T'Pol still could have been in her sexy Vulcan pjs.

But without the Trellium, sex might have happened - but later and under better circumstances.

I swore I wasn't going to do this...

I disagree about the neuropressure being unnecessary. The touch-contact raises the stakes for her with helping Trip. If it's only meditation, he comes to her quarters, so what? Make her have to touch him, though, and it becomes a big deal because Vulcans don't like casual contact, touch makes them vulnerable to the emotions of the other. It's more interesting if she has to decide if she wants to or even can overcome this cultural/personal space barrier if she wants to help him. Mere meditation doesn't put her in that vulnerable position, even with jammies and candles. Nude meditation, then we MAY have something to talk about. But otherwise, no big. They might as well be having a stitch 'n bitch session at that point.

[WarpGirl]

CW As far as I know there were no "biological imperatives" for Sarek when he chose Amanda Grayson (why do I feel like she's Dick Grayson's mom?) or his second wife Perrin. They were completely relationships of their own choices. No push factor, just two couples (well sort of) who chose to be together. Although if I remember correctly Amanda and Sarek had a very hard time for a while due to the cultural difficulties.

Aquarius I think that you missed a lot of KTR's point. However I can't speak for him. I am glad that you decided to join us though.

[Aquarius]

Nope, I'm pretty sure I got it. Neuropressure not needed for them to get together. I disagree.

[Distracted]

I hate to be the one to throw cold water on things, but based on canon unless we hypothesize some other source of damage to T'Pol's emotional control or an overwhelming trigger (from mental rapes, Pa'nar, the bond caused by neuropressure, what have you), consummation would not have taken place without Trell-D. We can't use Sarek's "it was the logical thing to do" justification unless we assume female Ponfarr because Sarek's need for a partner in Ponfarr drove his "logical decision". Having sex outside of marriage is not logical behavior for a Vulcan. Having a relationship with a human (unless you happen to be stuck halfway across the galaxy with no alternative partners of your own race) is not logical behavior for a Vulcan.

Don't get me wrong. I hate Trell-D. The writers had so many other options to use if they wanted TnT to be a couple. There was no reason to malign the character and make her a drug addict except that some writer or producer thought that it would make good TV. BUT...I don't believe that a "normal" relationship... ie: They date, they fall in love, they decide to committ to each other, they get married...is possible between the characters if we assume that T'Pol is a canon-faithful "normal" Vulcan. Something out of the ordinary had to happen. I personally would have preferred the creation of the bond through meditation together followed by Trip's desire for her plus her jealousy plus some residual damage from Pa'nar syndrome overwhelming her control. No drugs necessary.

[Alelou]

They didn't just rely on Trellium and neuropressure. They really cooked up a whole kettle of excuses for T'Pol to go nuts. Because, frankly, I wonder if T'Pol wasn't right to be worried about Amanda. Trip was in a vulnerable state, Amanda apparently wasn't someone he considered off limits, Amanda was making the moves -- something Trip seems to enjoy in a woman -- and they seemed to have quite a lot in common. Who's to say he wouldn't have ended up contenting himself quite happily with Amanda Cole?

I know, sacrilege. And I don't think T'Pol would have made her move to cut Amanda off at the pass -- at least not quite so dramatically -- if it hadn't been for the neuropressure and perhaps also the Trellium-D. She still would have been jealous, though. Probably obviously so, based on earlier seasons. It could have been interesting. I could still see that whole thing still coming to a head in Season 3 just because of that.

[honeybee]

While I don't disagree with you that the touching upped the ante and was an important component to what happened, Aquarius, I just envision the meditation gradually becoming more physically intimate - starting off chaste, and then, T'Pol trying the same trick she did with Hoshi in the first season. . .but then because of the attraction. . .it turns into something more. I just felt like the np felt a little "dropped in" to give them an excuse to be touching - and it could have been done a little more organically.

And I totally agree with you Alelou, Amanda was a legitimate option for Trip. One that made more logical sense than T'Pol herself, and even in her trellium haze, she would have recognized that. She knew Trip had feelings for her thanks to Sim, and she realized that she didn't want him to stop having feelings for him so she "marked her territory" in Harbinger.

I do think that the trellium was presented as a social lubricant that made that happen, but the way the plotline played out was degrading to the character. I don't think it was necessary to make her look like a junkie.

However, I propose the following alternate scenario: After the Seleya - T'Pol's got neural damage that makes not be able to suppress her emotions as well as before- though the emotions she feels are real. Phlox puts her on meds to control it - but she notices that as the meds wear off - she starts feeling things for Trip that she likes - so she goes off her meds, in he same way bi polars go off meds so they can "feel" things. That way, she keeps her agency - wanting to feel things for Trip - but it's more of a mental illness metaphor (Vulcan style). It would have been more original and less degrading.

[Aquarius]

While I don't disagree with you that the touching upped the ante and was an important component to what happened, Aquarius, I just envision the meditation gradually becoming more physically intimate - starting off chaste, and then, T'Pol trying the same trick she did with Hoshi in the first season. . .but then because of the attraction. . .it turns into something more. I just felt like the np felt a little "dropped in" to give them an excuse to be touching - and it could have been done a little more organically.

I think I'm also seeing this from the point of view of the need for time compression for the sake of television. If this were a TV show about Trip and T'Pol only, I could maybe see your idea. But they have other characters' subplots and main storylines to move along, so lots of times a producer or show runner is going to ask you for a quicker way to Point B from Point A that can remain somewhat plausible. So maybe that's why I don't have such a problem with the neuropressure thing, especially with the knowledge that Vulcans don't like to be touched.

[honeybee]

I see your point. I don't have a big problem with the neuropressure - just that it was a little contrived. But not nearly enough to ruin my enjoyment of those scenes!

[WarpGirl]

YEY Dis is here! Missed ya. Anyhow, well let's face it T'Pol does have pa'nar, her intial exposure to Trell-D was neither her doing nor a good thing for her brain. And her emotions, were far "closer to the surface" than the average Vulcan. Also we must remember the anomalies were dangerous physiologically. The VHC knew that before Enterprise left. We know that certain stressers, like say being on a boat can mess with our nervous system. For example, when you've been on a boat a long time when you get back to land you have 'sea legs' your brain has to adjust to solid land again. Although we only saw people being damaged by either getting twisted up or thrown into walls, whoes to say the effects ended there?

I'm a little obsessed with Temple Grandin right now, a renowned scientist and Spock fan she is also autistic. She once said she and Spock had a lot in common. Now That interested me because if you look at a Vulcan from her persepctive that she is the "normal" one and Spock or Vulcans as normal I can't help but wonder to a Vulcan whether T'Pol was ever "normal" at least for that particular era. After her era it's pretty much accepted that emotional control for a Vulcan is as individual as the people themselves.

For the record I do not mean to say anything to trivialize anyone with autisim or the parents of autistic children. I have loved ones who deal with that everyday.

Anyway Dis where did it ever say Sarek married Amanda because of Pon Farr? I never heard that before ever ever. Care to tell me what I missed?

Alelou I wrote something like that. That Trip had every reason in the universe to go for Amanda, I don't think it's sacrilege. But personally I think T'Pol needed Trip to hold on to out there. She left her people, her position, everything behind. She needed something to go on for besides loyalty. Archer was out of his mind half the time. And Trip needed her. That's important. But they didn't need neuropressure for that. And you're right if T'Pol didn't jumped him because of the Trell-D, he might have gotten together with Amanda and T'Pol would have lived with it. But would that have been so bad? Amanda could have been killed, and the 4th season could have been a lot less jerked around.

Honeybee you are brilliant! I like neuropressure, but I agree it was contrived, (to take off clothes)