Did T'Pol NEED the Trellium D?

[Aquarius]

Probably repeating myself here but here goes:

While there's nothing that says a Vulcan would never engage in pre-marital sex, I'm pretty secure in imagining that it's probably not a common thing. Marriages are arranged when they're children. They don't really need to go through the developmental tasks that humans do when it comes to dating and experimentation; they don't have to kiss a bunch of frogs before they find their prince/princess because they know they've got someone waiting for them when the time is right. So, unless we were talking about a Vulcan who didn't go through the developmental tasks of emotion suppression, or one who did but later chose to reject them, I can think of no "logical" reasons for them to experiment with sex before marriage. The only "logical" situation I can think of is if perhaps one was already acquainted with his or her betrothed and found them attractive; then a case could be made that there's no logic in waiting since they're going to end up together any way.

T'Pol's situation is different. She had gone through the typical developmental tasks of her people, though her emotions were still always closer to the surface than most. Still, she was perfectly willing to toe the line--usually. We learn that she sneaks away from her people to see how the "other half" lives, that she's tempted by the chaos of emotion, which that jazz music was an obvious metaphor for it. One night without meditation also reveals that sexual urges are also pretty close to the surface. She'd lived on Earth for quite a while, but after being on the Enterprise for a short time, she tells her betrothed to take a hike. Throw in pa'nar syndrome and the whole P'Jem thing, it's pretty easy to see how she might conclude that none of her own people would want her. To them, she's damaged goods.

So she starts to open her mind to different ideas about the subject of relationships and dating. By our standards, she's still pretty virtuous, but by her people's standards, she's already a skank. She obviously doesn't feel judgmental toward the humans for their more casual attitudes about sex--otherwise she wouldn't have suggested that the crew go to Risa to get laid. Still, *she* doesn't have any tendencies toward being random or casual about it, but now she's faced with the developmental tasks of finding a mate for herself if she wants one--something that hadn't been an issue for her before. We know she feels attracted to Trip from the get-go, from the chemistry between them. Yet she doesn't make a move on him until they've had occasion to get closer. Touch isn't the only thing going on in those neuropressure sessions. She and Trip spend time talking, so between their conversations and the touch-telepathy, what she feels for him is much more than physical--and I'm sure the same went for Trip--however they both were probably thinking that there was no way in hell that the other would want them. Still, once she'd been exposed to the the Trellium, during those not-unpleasant after-effects, she actually has to face what she feels for Trip, and she likes it.

Were the candles and jammies an attempt to hit on Trip all along, a sign he'd see if it had come from a human woman, but he totally misses it because in his mind it's out of the question that a Vulcan--*this* Vulcan--could want him? Or was T'Pol just oblivious to the message they'd be sending if she'd been a human woman? I think a case could be argued either way. I haven't thought much about that myself; for now, to me, it just is what it is.

I'm inclined to say there was nothing casual about their encounter, and *that* is what has T'Pol all freaked out the next morning. Between the Trellium removing that roadblock to her feelings and her desires coming to fruition--it was all reality now, not a fun-to-think-about fantasy. I think the gravity of her feelings for Trip frightened her, that she was overwhelmed by how another person can just kind of take you over--what we call love--versus any real fear that Trip would install a revolving door on his quarters.

[Aikiweezie]

Probably repeating myself here but here goes:

While there's nothing that says a Vulcan would never engage in pre-marital sex, I'm pretty secure in imagining that it's probably not a common thing. Marriages are arranged when they're children. They don't really need to go through the developmental tasks that humans do when it comes to dating and experimentation; they don't have to kiss a bunch of frogs before they find their prince/princess because they know they've got someone waiting for them when the time is right. So, unless we were talking about a Vulcan who didn't go through the developmental tasks of emotion suppression, or one who did but later chose to reject them, I can think of no "logical" reasons for them to experiment with sex before marriage. The only "logical" situation I can think of is if perhaps one was already acquainted with his or her betrothed and found them attractive; then a case could be made that there's no logic in waiting since they're going to end up together any way.

T'Pol's situation is different. She had gone through the typical developmental tasks of her people, though her emotions were still always closer to the surface than most. Still, she was perfectly willing to toe the line--usually. We learn that she sneaks away from her people to see how the "other half" lives, that she's tempted by the chaos of emotion, which that jazz music was an obvious metaphor for it. One night without meditation also reveals that sexual urges are also pretty close to the surface. She'd lived on Earth for quite a while, but after being on the Enterprise for a short time, she tells her betrothed to take a hike. Throw in pa'nar syndrome and the whole P'Jem thing, it's pretty easy to see how she might conclude that none of her own people would want her. To them, she's damaged goods.

So she starts to open her mind to different ideas about the subject of relationships and dating. By our standards, she's still pretty virtuous, but by her people's standards, she's already a skank. She obviously doesn't feel judgmental toward the humans for their more casual attitudes about sex--otherwise she wouldn't have suggested that the crew go to Risa to get laid. Still, *she* doesn't have any tendencies toward being random or casual about it, but now she's faced with the developmental tasks of finding a mate for herself if she wants one--something that hadn't been an issue for her before. We know she feels attracted to Trip from the get-go, from the chemistry between them. Yet she doesn't make a move on him until they've had occasion to get closer. Touch isn't the only thing going on in those neuropressure sessions. She and Trip spend time talking, so between their conversations and the touch-telepathy, what she feels for him is much more than physical--and I'm sure the same went for Trip--however they both were probably thinking that there was no way in hell that the other would want them. Still, once she'd been exposed to the the Trellium, during those not-unpleasant after-effects, she actually has to face what she feels for Trip, and she likes it.

Were the candles and jammies an attempt to hit on Trip all along, a sign he'd see if it had come from a human woman, but he totally misses it because in his mind it's out of the question that a Vulcan--*this* Vulcan--could want him? Or was T'Pol just oblivious to the message they'd be sending if she'd been a human woman? I think a case could be argued either way. I haven't thought much about that myself; for now, to me, it just is what it is.

I'm inclined to say there was nothing casual about their encounter, and *that* is what has T'Pol all freaked out the next morning. Between the Trellium removing that roadblock to her feelings and her desires coming to fruition--it was all reality now, not a fun-to-think-about fantasy. I think the gravity of her feelings for Trip frightened her, that she was overwhelmed by how another person can just kind of take you over--what we call love--versus any real fear that Trip would install a revolving door on his quarters.

That means I agree completely with your logic.

[panyasan]

Very nicely put, Aquarius!

[pdsldl]

I agree with you Aquarius.

[Silverbullet]

I believed that T-Pol was aVirgin the night she Seduced Trip. she probably thought about doing it, even meditated on it. But being inexperienced how would she go about it? As a Seductress? she wouldn't know how. So, best option: Passionate Kiss, show him the goods another passionate kiss and let him take over. The TD would be of no help there.

Problem with the Seduction scene was that it should have been a whole eppisode. Cole should have been introduced a few episodes prior so we could see T-Pol's raction to Trip's growing attachment to Cole. Perhaps even t-Pol trying to get chummier with trip to head off cole. The Seduction scene should have gone on longer. they could have shown trip taking the intitiative once T-Pol got things rolling with the kiss and show and tell time. The passage of time could have been shown with the cliche of the burned down candle. Then Trip and T-Pol laying in bed (Covers pulled up to t he chin) talking. About what? Not thier latest investments. A little love talk perhaps. All of that would have made what hapened the next morning even more shocking. T-Pol complete about face from night to morning.

I don't belive that the TD had any effect on the seduction at all. It was pure panic on T-Pol's part that Cole was closing in on her territory and she had to defend it as best she could in the only way she coud think of.

[Aquarius]

Problem with the Seduction scene was that it should have been a whole eppisode.

And that would never happen, since it's not the Trip and T'Pol show. They had a main plot to push; no subplot is going to get that much attention, no matter how hot it is. Not to mention, it would put off the viewers who watch for the sci-fi/action elements and not the 'ships.

[honeybee]

Very well said, Aquarius. (You're earlier post)

I will add to it. T'Pol is of marriageable age and of a race that telepathically bonds with one person. As much as she's a loner, she's not wired to be alone. And yet, she's rejected her fiance.

So, she starts spending lots of time in close proximity to an attractive man, who is the right physical age and happens to be a friend. They are both dealing with crap (her the trellium, him his depression over his sister). We know that Vulcans usually spend a year with their spouses getting to know one another, probably before pon farr roles around.

So, Trip becomes, in a way - a defacto husband by playing the role in her life that a husband should. So, when Amanda Cole comes along - she reacts instinctively to protect what is hers. I tend to believe that even before Harbinger - all the physical contact has started the bond.

So, to me - this makes the trellium less important. I've got a mental block, though I acquiesce to your point about it being an excellent social lubricant.

So, I think the sexy jammies, the candles, the flirtation . . .it's all part of the same subconscious dynamic. She may tell herself it means nothing, but deep down she knows it is not nothing.

[Alelou]

However, people who struggle in their families with the ongoing, exhausting reality of mental illness and the difficulties of maintaining proper medication -- something that can present ongoing challenges throughout one's life -- may find a breezy abbreviated science fiction TV version of that just a bit annoying.

Well, I think people who struggle with drug addiction their whole lives could make the same claim. And you don't get over an addictive personality any more than you get over mental illness. Some would argue drug addiction is a form of mental illness. As someone with an alcoholic father and a profoundly mentally ill brother who goes off his meds all the time - I would not have been offended to see the subject treated - if treated with respect and good writing. I mean, I floated the idea based on my brother's last episode (last summer) of going off his meds and his six week stint in a hospital. So, I'm aware of what the families with mental illness go through as well as drug/alcohol addiction.

Trek can handle sensitive issues - I really enjoyed Alzheimer's metaphor TNG did with Sarek - which was just a one off episode and quite respectful. I think it's all in the execution.

I liked that one too, but it was key that Sarek was a guest character, not one of the regulars. I don't think you can hope to introduce an ongoing mental health issue and resolve it in one neat episode and then just move on if it's about one of your regulars. So, from that point of view, a drug addiction is easier to deal with than a mental illness, especially since it was still, really, just a subplot. Like the whole romance. Even so, I think we might all feel the drug addiction idea was just kind of dumped in there, when we should have seen something building up.
We got to see it tail off, but it was still a real "WTF?" for a lot of people when it was first revealed.

[Aquarius]

Very well said, Aquarius. (You're earlier post)

I will add to it. T'Pol is of marriageable age and of a race that telepathically bonds with one person. As much as she's a loner, she's not wired to be alone. And yet, she's rejected her fiance.

So, she starts spending lots of time in close proximity to an attractive man, who is the right physical age and happens to be a friend. They are both dealing with crap (her the trellium, him his depression over his sister). We know that Vulcans usually spend a year with their spouses getting to know one another, probably before pon farr roles around.

So, Trip becomes, in a way - a defacto husband by playing the role in her life that a husband should. So, when Amanda Cole comes along - she reacts instinctively to protect what is hers. I tend to believe that even before Harbinger - all the physical contact has started the bond.

So, to me - this makes the trellium less important. I've got a mental block, though I acquiesce to your point about it being an excellent social lubricant.

So, I think the sexy jammies, the candles, the flirtation . . .it's all part of the same subconscious dynamic. She may tell herself it means nothing, but deep down she knows it is not nothing.

Good points, especially about Trip becoming the de facto husband.

To me, the Trellium was a catalyst. Would their physical relationship have happened any way without it? Eventually. But again, I default to the realities that TV writers face: move the plot faster, and don't lose sight of what else is going on in the show. I've heard people say they think that the Trellium thing was an afterthought; I'm inclined to doubt that. Before the season of shooting begins, the producers, show runners, and staff writers have meetings, they know in *general* where the season is going, and specific writing assignments are doled out. These meetings continue until the season's scripts are written. Now, at the beginning of the season, Trellium specifically may not have been conceived, but they knew that "something" was going to happen to speed things up. By the time they got to developing "Impulse," they had it nailed down.

[Alelou]

I am willing to bet they set up the relationship from the very beginning when they were planning the season. The Trellium was their answer to the obvious fan objection that T'Pol wasn't being Vulcan enough in having a relationship with Trip. However, I wonder if the Trellium came up mid-season, after they started to get nervous or maybe even because they got some grief about T'Pol's behavior in Harbinger (didn't Blalock herself disapprove?).

[Silverbullet]

I don't know of all the interviews Jolene gave but it was my understanding she said "Either have a relationship or don't bu t make up your minds." or something to that effect.

Cannot see why there would be objections to T-Pol's action in Harbinger except for the fact that there was no build up to it in previous episodes. It was just bang, We got a relationship consumated.

Had there been a build up over a few episodes of Trip and T-Pol becoming closer and closer and then cole comiing in to the picture it may have gone over better. but it was too abrupt so that may be the reason for the negative comments out of some. for myself I liked it the same as I liked the Paris/torres admission of love in voyager. Lent some credibility to the series. After all they are in space for years, young and healthy. there has to be some oulet. T-Pol's advice re risa notwithstanding.

[Aquarius]

I am willing to bet they set up the relationship from the very beginning when they were planning the season. The Trellium was their answer to the obvious fan objection that T'Pol wasn't being Vulcan enough in having a relationship with Trip. However, I wonder if the Trellium came up mid-season, after they started to get nervous or maybe even because they got some grief about T'Pol's behavior in Harbinger (didn't Blalock herself disapprove?).

I don't know anything about Jolene objecting to that. I wouldn't be surprised, though; she's a self-professed Star Trek fan and probably had very definite ideas of what a Vulcan is or isn't--like the rest of us do/did. I can see a case for Harbinger being written without the idea that she wasn't on anything except predatory get-away-from-my-man instincts, then the producers later saying "OMG, we need to give her a 'better' excuse than that; let's blame it on that Trellium stuff," then adjust the stories of the subsequent episodes later. Usually, though, they only do that kind of stuff if it tests badly or something. I don't know when they wrapped shooting for the season, but it seems to me that by the time "Harbinger" aired, it would've been too late to adjust the episodes that followed. I could be wrong; I don't have a shooting schedule to refer to.

[Alelou]

Well, if nothing else, I'm sure there were some vocal A/T'P'ers who would complain. But I have no doubt there were people out there who thought a Vulcan would never do that. Sometimes all they have to do is react to spoilers to start getting the producers a little nervous.

[Aquarius]

That's true. Still, I'd like to know how many episodes were in the can or otherwise past the point of no return when that happened. Would be interesting to find out.

[Aikiweezie]

I am willing to bet they set up the relationship from the very beginning when they were planning the season. The Trellium was their answer to the obvious fan objection that T'Pol wasn't being Vulcan enough in having a relationship with Trip. However, I wonder if the Trellium came up mid-season, after they started to get nervous or maybe even because they got some grief about T'Pol's behavior in Harbinger (didn't Blalock herself disapprove?).

I don't know anything about Jolene objecting to that. I wouldn't be surprised, though; she's a self-professed Star Trek fan and probably had very definite ideas of what a Vulcan is or isn't--like the rest of us do/did. I can see a case for Harbinger being written without the idea that she wasn't on anything except predatory get-away-from-my-man instincts, then the producers later saying "OMG, we need to give her a 'better' excuse than that; let's blame it on that Trellium stuff," then adjust the stories of the subsequent episodes later. Usually, though, they only do that kind of stuff if it tests badly or something. I don't know when they wrapped shooting for the season, but it seems to me that by the time "Harbinger" aired, it would've been too late to adjust the episodes that followed. I could be wrong; I don't have a shooting schedule to refer to.

I read an interview where Jolene complained about the whole Trellium D addiction. She hated it, thought it was stupid. She also didn't think T'Pol would be attracted to Trip at all. Which I think is kind of funny because these two had SUCH major sexual chemistry.