Did T'Pol NEED the Trellium D?

[honeybee]

I think she softened on the TnT pairing by the fourth season. And it's weird, sometimes actors don't recognize chemistry when they have it or are surprised by it. She was later very angry about *the_abomination* (like everyone was) and did object to the breaking up of TnT after Bound, Demons and Terra Prime.

The A/T -ers love to bring up her earlier interviews without ever citing the later ones. Middleman is a great curator of all things JB - and he knows more than I.

But as far as there being no build up to Harbinger- I don't understand that. The np was obviously conceived to start an opposites attract romance between them - and there's TnT scenes in most of the early episodes of season 3 - (The Xindi, North Star, Rajinn just to name a few) - then you've got Similitude. So, I don't really get the idea that there was no build up to Harbinger. They're obviously supposed to be spending lots of time off camera and getting closer, too.

And GR did say that Vulcans can and do have sex outside of pon farr - this was in relation to Spock. Whether they do it outside of marriage or what would prompt T'Pol to do it is a separate issue.

[Alelou]

There was plenty of build-up to their encounter in "Harbinger," but not to the Trellium-D, if that's what triggered "Harbinger." (Though really by dropping Amanda into the mix so suddenly you could also argue that they pushed that rather suddenly.) I don't recall seeing anything that even hinted at the Trellium issue until we got to "Azati Prime." However, that was only three episodes later, and Aquarius is right that it probably would have been written and shot before they got any reaction to "Harbinger." (I seem to recall that post-production takes about six weeks.)

[honeybee]

Yes, I remember thinking the trellium kind of came out of nowhere - especially since there was dialogue at the end of Impulse that implied that T'Pol would be okay. So, I'm not sure if the trellium was planned or not.

[pdsldl]

If the TD was to make an excuse for Harbinger then TPTB were bigger idiots than I previously thought after the abomination. What's wrong with a Vulcan female who is attracted to a human male being just as clueless or actually even more clueless as to what to do when jealous and she fears losing his affection? Having no experience with a Vulcan much less an emotional human would force her to act on a purely instinctual level using what little she knows from Trip's past behavior. Was it smart. No, but is it ever smart to try to keep a guy with sex? Was it un-Vulcan? Maybe but T'Pol wasn't living with her people. She was trying to make a life amongst humans so when presented with challenges she was not prepared for she went with what was available to her at the time. Should she have tried expressing herself verbally. Of course. But Vulcans don't get any practice expressing themselves with anyone and the first time out of the gate she's expected to know how to talk to a potential human mate when Vulcans most likely never discuss much with their mate until they marry or go through Pon Farr. That's a daunting task for anyone but imagine what it must have felt like for T'Pol to contemplate discussing mating and other intimate topics with Trip. Once you start you open yourself up to a whole host of topics you may not be ready to discuss. I can see a very confused T'Pol thinking she could skip all of that uncomfortableness with acting rather than talking and then being overwhelmed with an emotional dam breaking she didn't see coming.

[WarpGirl]

OMG I tried to post right before Honeybee replied to Aquarius post on Vulcans and sex. Here's what I was tryin to say before the wireless went crazy...

OK Aquarius I pretty much agree that everything you said about Vulcans and sex, and how T'Pol viewed it. However I kind of think that she would have been concerned that Trip would view it as casual, thus giving her a way out in her own mind. It didn't help that the man never told her that he loved her and wanted her as his perminent "mate". He only admitted that he loved her to her mother, and never mentioned anything regarding marriage!!!!! I also think that Vulcans are tolorent of other cultures mating practices. They have no problem with Klingons, or Betazoids, so T'Pol recommending Risa had nothing to do with views on sexuality, as a Vulcan or her personally. She wasn't going there for sex so why should it matter personally to her? Humans have their own mating practices she has hers. As to why she had silk jammies and candles... I thought it was because candles and comfortable clothes made her comfortable. I would think she was aware that humans find such things romantic, she had been to movie night often enough. Maybe she also thought Trip would be more comfortable in an atmosphere designed to be as pleasent as possible.

Honeybee You are amazing, you say things so clearly. I agree that during that time she came to view Trip as the person she could hold on to out there. I tried to convey that in the chapter I wrote dealing with the whole "Cole incident" Trip was the only person she had to be T'Pol, not a 2IC with. She was taking care of him in a terrible period of her life. And By taking care of him she was also taking care of herself. I think she needed to be needed as a person and a friend. Add to that they were falling in love and of course in her mind as well as biology Trip would become "hers".

Oh I forgot Aquarius you are a little wrong about one thing there actually have been entire episodes of Trek about two character's romantic relationships. 3 of VOY I know of are, Blood Fever Day Of Honor Resolutions. And there were several episodes of DS9 dedicated to various characters love lives. So they could have done Harbinger as a whole TnT episode.

As to the rest... All great points but going back a few years when I read about the whole issue in ST Magazine all the interviews from TPTB said TnT came out of nowhere. They never planned a whole romance deliberately. It kind of fell into place when they decided T'Pol would be their addicted character. JB did hate it (IMO she had a right to do so) and even CT hated the way the relationship was handled. As for JB thinking T'Pol and Trip shouldn't be romantically involved I believe that was in season 2.

[Alelou]

Came out of nowhere? RB and BB are on my DVD talking about the chemistry between those two as they comment on the very first episode -- how you couldn't plan for it, it just happened, and sometimes surprised you -- but clearly they saw that it had happened right from the beginning. (And frankly I'm not even sure I buy that they didn't plan for it, given the scenes they wrote for those two and how they shot them.)

I don't believe it came out of nowhere in the third season, either. Maybe they'd tried to get away from it in the second season and realized that was a bad idea, but they definitely planned on it in the third season. One, we have those neuropressure scenes starting from the very beginning, falling into episodes where they don't really play an organic role in the plot. Two, "Harbinger" falls during the sweeps. You don't just start throwing stuff around for episodes that will air during the period when your network is deciding whether to renew you. You may up the ante, if you're getting desperate -- you may, for example, decide to hire a butt model -- but you don't just throw stuff in out of nowhere.

[Silverbullet]

Conner and Jolenen were such good actors they could project a lot of chemistry between the two characters regardless if they personally had any chemistry between them. Often you see Actors just going through the motions so there is no chemistry at all.

When Conner and Jolene had their scenes the screen could crackle with the chemistry. I read once that Jolene and conner talked about the scenes before they were shot. She obviously could not do that with Bakkula because they had so damned many scenes together. but with connor she didn't have all tha tmany so they could really put their backsi into the scenes.

All in all the chemistry was so obvious I am surprised the Suits didn't see it as bankable and pushed the pairing more. Might have boosted the ratings a bit. who knows

[WarpGirl]

Alelou I read that in an interview in the Magazine at the time of season 3. I think it was with Sussman, or Coto. While B&B might "claim" they had a grand plan for TnT. I don't believe it. They pushed the AinT too hard in the first two seasons. And the release of the DVD's was long after the seasons airing. Sorry but that's the way I see it. The romance was an excuse for the Trell-D. That's how TPTB viewed it at the time they were making the season.

[pdsldl]

I'm with Alelou on this one. If you aren't going to push the connection/chemistry between two actors then you don't let the directors shoot scenes with the two of them making eyes/gestures or standing with the body language these two had. Their business is TV so there's no way they don't understand the idiosyncrasies of lighting, staging etc.. and the effect such things have on fans perceptions of those interactions. If they did they should never be allowed near a TV or file production again.

[WarpGirl]

Like I said, my issue is with when they said this. It's suspect. How long did it take for them to say *the_abomination* was *the_abomination*??????????

[Silverbullet]

Don't believe that Brannon Braga ever admitted it was an abomination he said he "May have made a mistake, but that it was still a 'Cool' idea."

[WarpGirl]

You made my point Silverbullet. Why should I believe what they say after the fact when they honestly believed what said at the time they made the episodes.

[Alelou]

The timing of their remarks may indeed be suspect (and the content, too), but you'll never convinced me they just threw that scene into Harbinger without any thought of TnT shippiness being previously established, and especially not just because they wanted to throw Trellium-D in as a subplot later. There was too much in season 1 and season 3 that indicated they knew exactly what they were doing with those two characters. (I'll grant you late season 1 and season 2 may have been an attempt to back out and try Archer instead, but it clearly failed.)

Also, at least one of the two producers you mentioned was, I believe, the A/T'er in the group -- but Rick Bermand and Brannon Braga called the shots. Enterprise was their baby, for better or worse.

[WarpGirl]

But the B'S wrote the most dramatic examples of AinT other than Twilight they wrote ANiS, The Seventh, and Shadows Of P'Jem. So their baby or not TnT wasn't the origional plan for them. They wanted to add the Trell-D and they used TnT for that. Sorry but the DvD commentary is backpedling. I wish I still had the actual magazine. The B's were also quoted IN the artical even though it was a Sussman interview.

[pdsldl]

They way the show was shot supports their words because they allowed TnT scenes to be shot to best show them as a couple and their interactions/chemistry was always allowed to shine through. If they hadn't been supportive of the idea they would have insisted that the scenes be shot totally different. And the connection was there and meant to be there It wasn't an accident. You don't consistently do something by accident. And if it hadn't I for one would have given up on the show in season one.