"Divergent Paths" Discussion

[Thot]

At first I didn't realize that it was Jolene on the picture. Only on a second glance I got it.

Concerning chapter 51:
It's very good and gave a good insight on Erika and Kelby. The only fact you seem to have altered is that Erika gave Kelby a direct order not to get too deep into it. T'Pol made only an advisement/suggestion towards Trip in the aired version.
And I'm really glad that Trip was spared from this whole stupid mess of an episode. That Kelby would do something like this, is far more convincing.

There's only one aspect you could have mentioned in the chapter: The sameness of the actions towards the Cogenitor and some actions of Archer in over episodes.
Although I can understand, that you didn't want to make it even worse for Archer right now, since he already is doubting himself.

Something else: I hope that you don't plan on skipping the discussion between Trip and T'Pol about the beginning of the bond.
Now that would be totally stupid, since this chat is the beginning of the relationship between them. You simply can't skip it or just summ it up in flashbacks/from memory. It would be quite a hole in telling the story. I mean this story is running for 51 chapters and nearly 120,000 words towards something like this and then to avoid it would be
Or would have to pull a plot bunny beyond belief out of the hat.

Well, you could let Trip react badly about the news and he has to sorten things out - what I can't fathom in this story - or T'Pol doesn't explain the situation to Trip for some time - could be, but if this is good, depends on how you put up the upcoming developements.

[panyasan]

There's only one aspect you could have mentioned in the chapter: The sameness of the actions towards the Cogenitor and some actions of Archer in over episodes.
Although I can understand, that you didn't want to make it even worse for Archer right now, since he already is doubting himself.

I missed that aspect too, but then again, this is from Erika's POV. I don't know if she is aware of some of Archer actions (and reading about it is different then experiencing and it's more about her and Kelby and to a lesser degree about Archer.

[WarpGirl]

Concerning chapter 51:
It's very good and gave a good insight on Erika and Kelby. The only fact you seem to have altered is that Erika gave Kelby a direct order not to get too deep into it. T'Pol made only an advisement/suggestion towards Trip in the aired version.
And I'm really glad that Trip was spared from this whole stupid mess of an episode. That Kelby would do something like this, is far more convincing.

There's only one aspect you could have mentioned in the chapter: The sameness of the actions towards the Cogenitor and some actions of Archer in over episodes.
Although I can understand, that you didn't want to make it even worse for Archer right now, since he already is doubting himself.

OK I loved CT's preformance in Cogenator, but it was also the episode where I went from "Archer is not my cup of tea" to "Archer should burn, the blasted hypocrite." So I gotta say I liked this version much better. I wouldn't have expected Kelby doing the deed though, so I gotta ask why him? I think if it was me I would have picked either Rostov, or Hoshi.

[panyasan]

I like the fact that Kelby was picked, it added a new layer to the man. He mostly only jugde by his actions in Bound (it was the Orions fault). Also like that the story that Trip took him under his wings.

<Edit: I just noticed how many spelling mistakes I made in my last posts. Shoudn't write in a hurry.>

[WarpGirl]

Was Kelby even in any other episodes besides Bound and Terra Prime? I don't remember ever seeing him having a warm and sensitive moment? I also like what Rigil has done with Kelby. I'm just wondering why he chose to use him? I didn't mean to imply I didn't like it.

[Thot]

Kelby was also seen in "Affliction", where Archer calls down to Engineering for more speed, where Kelby reacts only, that the injectors are already at 110%. Archer dignifies this with the point, that Trip got them on 120%.

That's it.

[WarpGirl]

Dang! Missed that one. Still I don't automatically think of him with a warm side, Orians or not. Hey Rigil how did you figure out what makes him tick?

[Rigil Kent]

Before I reply, I feel it necessary to say that I honestly don't think Kelby (or Trip in canon-verse) was actually wrong in what he (either one) did in regards to Charles. Morally, it seems like they did the right thing by standing up for the cogenitor. Legally, however, Kelby was completely in the wrong. He disobeyed a direct, lawful order from a superior officer, and as a result, the whole thing blew up in his face. So morally, he was right. Legally, he was dead wrong and should have done it differently.

So how did you come up with your amazing Erica Hernandez?

I wouldn't go so far as to say she's amazing. She seriously struggled with what should have been an easy call here - whether one likes it or not, she gave Kelby a direct order to cease and desist, which he ignored, and yet she had difficulty doing her job. Plus, there is the fact that, viewed from the POV of lower decks personnel, it appears that Kelby was punished by the first officer for doing the right thing. That's going to have some ramifications down the road.

but how did you figure out what makes her tick?

I dunno. I just have a mental image of how a character will act or react and go with it. Sometimes, I'm a little surprised by how that turns out, sometimes I'm not.

Do you like do character sketches in a notebook or something?

No, I don't do anything like that. I simply have a mental image of the character, how they'll react in certain situations, what their motivations are, and so on. Sometimes (as was the case with the original outline of this chapter), that leads me to being forced to back up and figure out an alternate way to accomplish my objective if the scenario is such that what I need a character to do is wildly out of character for them.

There's also the benefit of the characters in question (Rostov, Hernandez, Kelby) being basically a blank slate that I can apply my own personalities to. With Rostov, for example, I see him as becoming more of the "wise senior enlisted guy" who will eventually have far more experience in space than the new ensigns who come aboard that he has to salute and call 'sir.' Hernandez is the staff puke officer who has spent her entire career riding a desk or working at headquarters, but is now thrust back into a line unit slogging around in the mud, so she has to figure out how to actually lead. And Kelby? He was Trip's number two back on Earth and was happy to play that role because he knew he's not quite as smart or as capable as Tucker. I actually sort of envisioned his relationship with Trip as being akin to Trip's hero worship of Archer; in both instances, the target of the adoration/worship/whatever really isn't even aware of it and might even take it for granted.

Another thing I'm curious about is whether Archer's isolation will advance Erica's transition into a Captain later on?

He's not as isolated as you may think and is dealing with some other issues himself (which will be touched on in more detail later.) But ultimately, the answer to your question is a resounding shrug. Hernandez still has a lot to figure out before she's ready for her own command and the aftermath of this chapter aboard ENT will highlight that, but she'll have to prove herself worthy of being frocked before any promotions are forthcoming.

There's only one aspect you could have mentioned in the chapter: The sameness of the actions towards the Cogenitor and some actions of Archer in over episodes.

Ah, but the point thus far for Archer is that since Trip & T'Pol's "death", he isn't doing this sort of thing anymore and hasn't been for a while, so it seemed a little out of place to highlight the fact that Jon is a hypocrite (since, unlike the canon-verse, he's not really at this point.)

Something else: I hope that you don't plan on skipping the discussion between Trip and T'Pol about the beginning of the bond.

Not planning on it, no. But it might not happen in the way you think.

I wouldn't have expected Kelby doing the deed though, so I gotta ask why him? I think if it was me I would have picked either Rostov, or Hoshi.

Why not him? My original outline for this chapter had Hernandez being the one who screwed the pooch with the cogenitor, but I couldn't get it to work and finally realized I was trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. As someone who fancies herself to be a diplomat, she wouldn't make a stupid mistake like this. I ended up falling back on Kelby because it just made sense to me. In the beginning of season 1, they pretty much established that Trip had spent most of his career on Earth so he didn't have much experience off-world. If Kelby was the same way, then it stands that he would make the same sort of mistakes that Trip did in the canon-verse. As Thot points out, the big difference here is that the first officer literally gave him a direct order to cease and desist which he ignored, whereas in the canon version, T'Pol simply made a strong suggestion to stop so Trip wasn't obligated to actually obey her.

As to using Rostov or Hoshi ... no, that really doesn't fit either character at this point. Both of them have more deep-space and first contact experience at this point than either Hernandez or Kelby, and I'd like to think they're both smart enough to know better.

[WarpGirl]

Before I reply, I feel it necessary to say that I honestly don't think Kelby (or Trip in canon-verse) was actually wrong in what he (either one) did in regards to Charles. Morally, it seems like they did the right thing by standing up for the cogenitor. Legally, however, Kelby was completely in the wrong. He disobeyed a direct, lawful order from a superior officer, and as a result, the whole thing blew up in his face. So morally, he was right. Legally, he was dead wrong and should have done it differently.

I totally concur!

I have to say I envy you the ability to flesh out such amazing characters (and yes I believe Erika is amazing) that make people care about them just by a mental image of what you want. I've gone through dozens of notebooks just to get a vague idea of what works and what I want.

I understand your reasons for choosing Kelby over Hoshi (and your right about her) or Rostov (I still think it could work nicely in some story) thank you for explaining.

[Thot]

Before I reply, I feel it necessary to say that I honestly don't think Kelby (or Trip in canon-verse) was actually wrong in what he (either one) did in regards to Charles. Morally, it seems like they did the right thing by standing up for the cogenitor. Legally, however, Kelby was completely in the wrong. He disobeyed a direct, lawful order from a superior officer, and as a result, the whole thing blew up in his face. So morally, he was right. Legally, he was dead wrong and should have done it differently.

I totally concur!

Basically yes: If there was ever a case, where a sentient being was in need of help during the first two seasons than it was the Cogenitor.
Think abou, what her life included: slavery, the surpression of any personality, prostitution... I don't want to fathom, who many children "Charles" already had

The only thing I could point out is the way Trip made his approach: to sneak around, not to openly question it. But in the end I can't blame him for that, since that's exactly, what Archer did with the Sulibans and Tandarans in the detention camp.

Ah, but the point thus far for Archer is that since Trip & T'Pol's "death", he isn't doing this sort of thing anymore and hasn't been for a while, so it seemed a little out of place to highlight the fact that Jon is a hypocrite (since, unlike the canon-verse, he's not really at this point.)

That's a good reason.

Something else: I hope that you don't plan on skipping the discussion between Trip and T'Pol about the beginning of the bond.

Not planning on it, no. But it might not happen in the way you think.

Well that's an annoucement. I will be waiting.

[panyasan]

Before I reply, I feel it necessary to say that I honestly don't think Kelby (or Trip in canon-verse) was actually wrong in what he (either one) did in regards to Charles. Morally, it seems like they did the right thing by standing up for the cogenitor. Legally, however, Kelby was completely in the wrong. He disobeyed a direct, lawful order from a superior officer, and as a result, the whole thing blew up in his face. So morally, he was right. Legally, he was dead wrong and should have done it differently.

I thought you used Soval very nicely to bring this point across.

[Distracted]

Everybody keeps referring to Charles as "she". Is it because an actress played the character? Canon is clear on the fact that Charles was neither male nor female. The biology of the trio wasn't fully explained, likely because the mechanics were considered too much for prime time TV, but since the usual meanings of "male" and "female" imply that the other two genders possessed the sperm and the ova, the cogenitor could have been something like the binnaums on the TV series Alien nation.

On that show the 3rd gender was revered as a priestly class and was anatomically male. A binnaum was enlisted to mate with the female just prior to her male partner doing so in order to produce a pregnancy. The semen of the binnaums contained a substance which was necessary for successful conception but did not contribute to the genetic makeup of the child. There was a big ceremony involved and the mating was not considered an act of infidelity. Matings which were not "blessed" by a binnaum were infertile. This was thought to be a deliberate genetic mutation induced by the race that had enslaved the aliens in the series in order to control their population growth during long distance space travel. Isolate the few binnaums, and presto. Instant birth control.

Alternatively, the cogenitors could be just repositories for the embryo, in which case their anatomy would have to have been more like a female in order to give birth. A third gender to act as a surrogate womb while the other 2 parents were unimpaired and better able to protect the rest of the family would be a survival advantage on a planet with aggressive predators. If the cogenitors were the child-bearers, though, one would think that they would have breasts in order to feed the child, so I'm more in favor of the binnaum theory myself. Having two male equivalent parents to one female would give the family twice as many protectors, although what societal upheaval must have taken place to relegate the cogenitors to non-person status one can only imagine. I would guess that the stronger, more muscular, and more aggressive male gender subjugated the cogenitors early in the history of the planet because they were competition for the females' attentions.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that it makes just as much sense to call Charles "he" as "she" given the fact that we have no idea of the role the cogenitors play in procreation other than that they are indispensible.

[Thot]

@ Distracted

Yes, you right, but I was simply picking up the version, Trip used in the episode. He said something like: "Strikes me more like a she".
That's the reason to use the pronoun 'she'.

[Distracted]

Ah. I never noticed that.

[Silverbullet]

You are right, Distracted, how did it arrive that the Coginitor was an It and treated like it was. How did the three sexes evolve to that state. Interesting to think about.