"Divergent Paths" Discussion

[Thot]

I think you're missing his point. He isn't talking about the budget, but about the leadership lessons that could be learned from either case. Take "Band of Brothers," for example. If they had studied it, imagine how much cooler Jonathan Archer could have been if he was cast in a more Dick Winters mold? They constantly tried to imply that his crew would walk through fire for Archer, but we saw no reason why. With Dick Winters, we saw it on the screen why his troops were willing to throw themselves on grenades for the man. It isn't a matter of the budget, but rather what a real leader is like.

Once again: In the essence you are right, but it still would throw a huge part of the concept of the series into the garbage bag, if they had been as "prepared" as you have pointed out in your former post: The whole 'they are naiive and then they have to face reality' wouldn't work! (One of the things, which I found most carming about the whole series.)
I still think the scenes of Archer in 'Home', where he contemplaits about this topic, are probably the best the character has in the whole series.

But I'm in total agreement with you, that they seem too naiive in some regards - even if you count in their simple inexperience, the way how the Vulcans hold them back, the idealism of many people in Starfleet, who simply think that fighting won't be the issue.


Concering Dick Winters:
To compare the leadership of a man in war with a captain of a science/explorer vessel is from my point of view quite a bold approach.
But I give you that: Some of Dick Winter would have been good for Archer.


Concering 'Archer didn't show any reasons, why people should be willing to go through hell and back for him':

I can tell you one: Whatever he does, in the end it works! Miracle Boy! (look at the deleted scene from the episode 'Shuttlepod One', where Trip tells Malcolm about his scubba diving experience with Archer)

How I regard this kind of writing by the TPTB, I can show you with this smiley:







To emphasize my opinion, just look at this poster from Kevin Thomas Riley:



For this picture, I will always be greatful.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

^ Heh! To be honest, while I did the motivational poster, I didn't do the actual Super Archer picture. That honour goes to chris1033.

As far as the crew's naïvité, I always say that there's a big difference between inexperience, which is legitimate for some new kids on the block, and ineptitude. Far too often Archer at al. displayed the latter when it should've been the former.

[Transwarp]

Sorry but this comparison is sooooo lame: If would have given Berman and Braga the same budget as those production, I think they would have made also some things quite different.

Throwing extra money at the show would have made it LOOK prettier, but the writing would have been just as lame. (Unless you are making the case that they deliberately hired substandard writers to save on expenses. Based on the evidence I might actually believe that.)

No, the real issue is what RK pointed out: Starfleet as portrayed on the screen (in EVERY series) was inept and incompetent because the show's writers and producers have probably never served in a uniformed service of ANY kind (to include the boy scouts), so they have no personal experience to draw from, nor did they make any obvious effort to learn from other sources. This is not a money issue--they would not need to pay their expert consultants; heck, I'd have done it for free, if I got to meet Jolene Blalock on the set!

And to be fair it's not just Star Trek that has this problem, but the vast majority of TV and films. Honestly, It's gotten so I hardly notice such inaccuracies any more, they're so common. If I let it bother me I'd have to stick to the History channel. My wife hates watching movies with me. Every time I see something completely unrealistic, I'll just say "Bogus."

So yes, with a little care and the same (or less!) budget, I think the series could have been extraordinary.

Just my 2000 millicents.

[WarpGirl]

You can say this, but if they had done this in the aired version then it would be the icing on the cake, since it would be soooooo hypocritical to let Archer ruin the contacts with the Klingons/Tandarans/Eska without him getting at least a reprimand from Head Quarters and Trip gets dressed down after pulling off the same mess.

Which is kind the entire reason I think Archer is the absolute worst of the worst "good guy" Captians ever. At least with Rigil's version Kelby was treated with dignity, and not told he was responsible for the Cogenitor's death. Oh not to mention the child's that will never exist life too.

Hey, Archer attacked... I stress the point once again ATTACKED a Tandaran prison camp and still Earth isn't at war with Tandarans or Archer is a convicted prisoner, who escaped from Rura Pente plus the man in charge of Earth's flagship and still the Klingons and Earth aren't at war.

And why the writing on Trek is at times reprehensible.

RE: Why is Starfleet screwed up... Well I've already stated my opinion about of the importance accuracy on the military aspect of Trek on the Other Trek board. No need to rehash that.

I would still like to understand why Erika's "angsting" means she is not qualified as a commanding officer in this chapter, I've heard stories by my family members who are in the military that many revered leaders have taken much longer about making decisions that scuttle good people's careers.

Edit: My internet connection is screwy so this was supposed to be after Navigator's post. On the other hand I thought I was the only West Wing fan here. Nice to know I'm not alone. And I agree with Thot a little suspension of reality isn't the end of the world, with a show like Trek.

[Rigil Kent]

I would still like to understand why Erika's "angsting" means she is not qualified as a commanding officer in this chapter, I've heard stories by my family members who are in the military that many revered leaders have taken much longer about making decisions that scuttle good people's careers.

I thought I replied to this, but I guess not. So basically, my response boils down to "read and find out." The story isn't complete.

[WarpGirl]

I look forward to it.

[Thot]

And to be fair it's not just Star Trek that has this problem, but the vast majority of TV and films. Honestly, It's gotten so I hardly notice such inaccuracies any more, they're so common. If I let it bother me I'd have to stick to the History channel.

That's quite true.

Throwing extra money at the show would have made it LOOK prettier, but the writing would have been just as lame. (Unless you are making the case that they deliberately hired substandard writers to save on expenses. Based on the evidence I might actually believe that.)

Don't play the question of budget down as a mere aspect of making the pictures a little bit shinier.

More/other/better writers is one point, but another is for example is the question of being consulted by experts/people, who point out aspects, which would increase the realism of the series.

But far more important is the fact, that many writers have quite good ideas, but simply can't carry them out, because the studios say 'Too many new sets required, too many actors' or whatever.

This can even reach up to the concept of the series (from Memory Alpha):

According to recent comments made by Executive Producer Brannon Braga in discussions with fans at TrekMovie.com, Berman's original idea for the series was to have the entire first season set on Earth as Humanity's first-ever warp starship was constructed. This was soon decided to be too far removed from the style of the franchise as a whole, and so the premise was redrafted.

With other words: The studio didn't want it, because it would have included too many costs, too many changes of settings, since they couldn't use an established number of settings like a star ship provides it.

Just look at Rigil Kent's story DivPath: Great story! But even if they would have liked to realize what we read so far from it as the season 2 of Enterprise, they wouldn't do it! Too many outdoor settings with huge outlay/needed investment (destroyed cities, much alien equipment) plus the additional actors you have on Enterprise like Hernandez, Kelby, Soval. So in the end you would have to cut it down so much, that you can spare all of us with the results.

Once again: This isn't my attempt to remedy the people responsible of all their failures made in the series. But even I as a fan can acknowledge, that producing a series is to a great extent a question of improvisation. You sew this simply in a great hurry and in hindsight you sometimes realize, how much bullshit you produce.

[Rigil Kent]

This can even reach up to the concept of the series (from Memory Alpha):

According to recent comments made by Executive Producer Brannon Braga in discussions with fans at TrekMovie.com, Berman's original idea for the series was to have the entire first season set on Earth as Humanity's first-ever warp starship was constructed. This was soon decided to be too far removed from the style of the franchise as a whole, and so the premise was redrafted.

With other words: The studio didn't want it, because it would have included too many costs, too many changes of settings, since they couldn't use an established number of settings like a star ship provides it.

Well, no offense, but that concept sounds kind of boring. Building a starship for an entire season wouldn't be very exciting, especially since it means they wouldn't actually be going anywhere. So in this example at least, the network is correct. (Not to mention, how can it be the "first-ever warp starship" since A) the Vulcans already had warp capability, and B) if it's meant to be first human warp-capable starship, we already saw that in Cochrane's Phoenix in the First Contact movie?)

But again, we're kind of veering off onto really weird tangents here. Yeah, I'm guilty of it too, but I really wish we could stick to the story discussion as opposed to the canon show discussion.

So here's a challenge for the readers: list the top five things you'd like to see as DivPath progresses. It can be major moments, minor moments, or just little jokey things that you think might be funny.

[Silverbullet]

Yes, but you don't need extra sets to do things like giving Hoshi,Malcom and Travis a promotion. Little things like that would have helped.

[Navigator]

Thot,

Rigil is correct; I'm not talking about budget, when I compared to Ryan or Brothers. Enterprise's writers had so little conception of how any heirarchical organization worked whether military or science, that it was beyond funny. For a small effort on their part a great improvement could have been made. However, there are good writers out there who will do the research and be able to bring a decent product to the viewer whether they have the background or not. With better writing they may have been able to put out a better show for less money as fewer special effects would have been necessary to compensate. Think Inspector Morse vs. CSI.

We used to have a discussion at work when this was on TV that could have been called "How many screw-ups were there this week?" I had a CPO working for me who was a real aficionado. I could just grin at him on Monday mornings and he'd cringe.

That's why Rigil's and others' works are so highly regarded. They consistently hand the "pros" their heads.

[panyasan]

Five things, let me think:
1. I enjoyed how the bond was developed in a natural way, living and sharing together, but I must confess Div. Paths is the only fic that have me starting rooting for Trip to receive a bit more then a kiss in white space.
2. Also I don't expect that the TnT-relationship is a bed of roses, but I hope that you will avoid he or she pushing the other away for means of angst and that we see two people who both made the choice for each other. TnT as team when they go after the Xindi.
3. I kinda of imagined TnT returning to Enterprise and T'Pol knocking at Trips door, because she is so used to sleep next to him, she can't sleep in her own cabin.
4. If TPol returns - that would mean Soval will have to leave - wouldn't that be a shame? Couldn't he stick around for a couple chapters? Please? Be T'Pols side kick?
5. Would like a scene between Hoshi and Travis and that Travis learns from his experience and grows up more (I developed a weak spot for the Barry White-dancer Travis).

[WarpGirl]

I wouldn't mind seeing Shran and Talas (especially if Talas doesn't die). That's about it.

[WarpGirl]

Sorry for the double, just found the new chapter. YEY you blew something up. I was beginning to worry you'd gone soft with all of this emotional stuff. So tell me how did you come up with this particular bond? Everyone writes it slightly differently, and I have to admit, I'm jealous of the way you have handled this. Is Pater your "Tolaris" revenge character? What I mean is, did you write this jackass because they let the other jackass go, and Trip or T'Pol get to kill this jackass?

I really appreciated that you had T'Pol behave very maturely about Trip's questions and confusion. She was beautifully done. She seems to truly love taking care of him. How did you get the methods she has been using to train Trip? Were they apart of your military experience? Because I found it inspiringly brilliant.

[Pitseleh]

To be honest, at first I was sort of disappointed about Trip not remembering what had happened because it meant that all his misconceptions about Archer and T'Pol were still in place. I am really looking forward to this conversation though, so...

Now my curiosity is piked. Is T'Pol ok? Was she captured? Is she hiding in the woods?

[WarpGirl]

I thought it made sense but then I've been as close to death as Trip was, and I remember the halucinations but not what happened. So I thought it was totally realistic, and fitting for some, drama, drama, drama!