Vulcan Arc

[Silverbullet]

WG, no she does not say they had Sex once or multiple times but how would she get Pregnant otherwise. Trip obviously believes that she had been. She says you don't believe me and he says if you say you have never been Pregnant then Phlox must be wrong. but the look on his face said otherwise he still thought she had been Pregnant.

Phlox says that if she (T'Pol) ever got pregnant you would know about it and Trip says yes then Phlox says thatif she had an Embryo removed you would know about that too. Trip again agrees. Phlox seemed to be saying that since you are having Sex with T'Pol you would know if she did get Pregnant or had an Embryo removed.

T'Pol says "You think I may have gotten Pregnant and not told you about it." Well how would she get Pregnant? By havin g Sex with Trip. She is saying that she had not got Pregnant although they were having Sex. How can she say
"I may have gotten Pregnant and not told you about it" if they weren't having Sex. She would have said "we never had Sex so how could I have gotten Pregnant." she didn't say that. She said "I might have gottten Pregnant and not told you about it.' That indicates they were having Sex.

[aadarshinah]

It's simple. In Trip's mind it can work like this:

In "Harbringer" they sleep together.
At some point after this, T'Pol realizes she's concieved (and, since she's a Vulcan, who knows how long this takes, or how long their pregnancies are. Since they're so long lived, their pregancies are probably longer too, and, for all Trip knows, she could have been pregnant for twice as long as a human before starting to show. If "Harbringer" takes place late-Nov/early-Dec and they get back to Earth in Feb, she could have - theoretically - been carrying that entire time and had the baby removed on Vulcan without anyone ever noticing) and doesn't tell Trip about it.
During "Home" she's able to have it removed and, since nothing ever came of the foetus, she feels she can go on with her life without ever telling him
Someone steals foetus and incubates it
Thus Elizabeth in "Demons"

One instance of sex is all that's required, regardless of what may or may not have happened after "Bound".

[WarpGirl]

Merci aadarshinah! If people want to think that TnT had a continuous sexual relationship more power to them. However, anything not directly stated can be open to the viewer. Same thing with Koss being a jerk, or T'Les an evil liar. Other people can see things and think of other options that are equally plausible.

[Silverbullet]

Except that more time than three months went by before they returned to Earth. Something more on the order of six months maybe more. So Embryo is removed on Vulcan. what happened to the Embryo? did the doctors preserve it until it was stolen. did the vulcan doctors sell the Embryo. Not sure what vulcans would feel about an Abortion. She probably would have to tell the Doctors the circumstances to justify the Abortion. "well the kid is Half Human" How does she find a doctor who does Abortions. Does Koss help her? What would hethink of her having ahalf human Child Aborted.

T'Pol says shehas never been Pregnant (as I say the Child in this is supposed to be thiers) she means she has never been pregnant by Trip. She also says that there is child out there and it is "Ours" That doesn't exactly square since they do not know that Elizabeth is a Binary Clone. So hete is T'Pol saying that she has never been Pregnant by Trip and saying that there is a child out thee and it is "Ours." No wonder Trip looked puzzled. Still though she just says that she has never been Pregnant but not that they weren't having Sex.

Besides if she had an Abortion on Vulcan and the Embryo was stolen where did the Thieves keep the Embryo. They would need an Articial Womb. Not too many of those arounnd outside of a Hospital. How was the Embryo transported from Vulcan to Earth? It would have to be in a special carrying method. Doctors attending it to make sure it didn't die while being transported. that would draw an awful lot of Attention. think your theory of T'Pol getting Pregnant on Enterprise that night and having an Abortion on Vulcan is a tad far fetched.

[aadarshinah]

It was an example of what Trip might have thought, SB. Humans in stress (as they presumably are when they find out they have a 6month old they never knew about) tend not to embrace logic like Vulcans do.

An (edited, and slightly more logical) version of events:

In "Harbringer" they have sex. This may or may not be the only time, but it is the first. On this example, I work on the assumption it was one and only. According to Memory Alpha, this is about late-Nov, early Dec 2153. I am also working on the assumptiont that MA knows what it's talking about. Ergo, from a normal human pregnancy, a child would be born from this (had T'Pol concieved) summer 2154, making the baby about 6months old in Jan of 2155. This timeline could work.

However, I doubt many pregnant Vulcans have reason to go to Earth and, as they don't share their mating habits with outsiders, I find it doubtful that human/denobulan doctors might know much about their pregnanies either. Ergo, working off the "they live twice as long" theory, one can glibbly assume that their pregnancies might take twice as long. Ergo, a Vulcan pregnancy might last 18 months and might not be noticable to an untrained eye for twice as long as a human pregnancy would on a human. If we work off MA's assumption that "Harbringer" was in Nov/Dec and we know from the episodes themselves that "Zero Hour" was in mid-Feb and the aquatics took Enterprise home the next day, that's roughtly 3 months. Add another month to get to Vulcan for safety, and that's 4 possible months of Vulcan pregnancy, which might translate into looking like about 2 months of human pregnancy. IDK about you, but I certainly can't tell a woman's pregnant at 2 months. Maybe a doctor can, but I can't. Basically the just of this is: Trip probably knows nothing about Vulcan pregnancy, so for all he knows is, it's possible.

In "Home" T'Pol has the foetus removed. The doctors may do this gladly (as it's half human) or unwillingly (because it's against their morals) or whatever, but it is done. One Vulcan doctor could keep it for study in some form of cryogentic storage - after all, it's the first hybrid we know of. A pro-Terra Prime operative working at the clinic (who was there to learn about Vulcan pregnanies so that they could properly mimic the event in their devious plans) finds out about the stored embryo, snatches it, and transports it like one might organs for transplant, mislabeled and/or at Paxton's expense, back to the Moon.

By "Demons" Terra Prime has artifically brought the baby - Elizabeth - to term and she is now 6months old.

Thus a baby the traditional way, Trip never knowing about it. Given everything that goes on between them, I find it unlikely to imagine a sexual relationship between the two given what we see between "Harbringer" and "Bound," and, unless you get Daniels involved, there is no physical way that any child that T'Pol might concieve after "Bound," which takes place in late fall of 2154, could possibly be 6months old by the events of "Demons" in Jan 2155. Especially if you subscribe to the "live twice as long, grow/age twice as slow" theory.

again.

[WarpGirl]

I have been trying to say all of that in a way that makes sense for 1 year and four months!

[Silverbullet]

Frankly we don't know how much time was involved beetween Harbinger and Zero Hour. I haven't watched the Episodes. they usually giv the date at the beginning of the episode.

Having an Abortion on vulcan is a Strech. Having a Terra Prime operative (human) on vulcan studying Vulcan Pregnacis is realy a big Strech since they are so damned touchy about revealing anything about themselves especiealy about mating which would inlcude Pregnacies.

Again, I would ave to watch all of the Episode between bound and Demons. althught I think that just the MU episodes and perhaps one other were between bound and Demons. Then too you are makin gassumptios about the length of a vulcan Pregnacy. I don't belive it is in the encyclopedia. MA parrots what was in the Episodes.

Anyway, Between Harbinger and Demons was a long time. If a vulcan PPregnancy was ten months T'Pol would start to show on boad Enterpise.

But what you are saying doesn't mean they did not have an ongoing Sexual Relationship after Bound. If you can, rewatch Demons and terra Prime with the thought in mind that T'Pol and Trip wre having an ongoing Sexual relationship and see if the dialogue doesn't fit that. I have viewed Demons and Terra Prime a number of times (several) and tried looking at it with the thought that they were not having a Sexual relationship and then with the thought that they were having a Sexual relationship and the dialogue fit the sexual relationship beetter than not having a sexual relationship.

SB

[WarpGirl]

SB look at what aadarshinah actually said...

I find it unlikely to imagine a sexual relationship between the two given what we see between "Harbringer" and "Bound," and, unless you get Daniels involved, there is no physical way that any child that T'Pol might concieve after "Bound,"

It means that unless Daniels pulled some mischief a six month old Elizabeth could not have been concieved after "Bound." She did not say that TnT were not having a sexual relationship after Bound.

That said I wish I had thought of putting it like that.

[opal]

My understanding it that there is no way that T'Pol and Trip could conceive a viable embryo without a great deal of medical assistance. Sarek and Amanda required outside intervention in order to conceive and bring to term their baby, Spock.

IMO Elizabeth was a binary clone created from their joint DNA in a science lab therefore T'Pol's statement to Trip that she had never been pregnant was the truth.

[aadarshinah]

*Holds up hands*

In my own ideal world, there was something going on between Trip and T'Pol between "Bound" and "Demons."

That being said, I can guess how Trip might have thought T'Pol could have been pregnant and, given the peculiarities of their relationship, never told him. The average starship engineer probably does not hear the words "You have a 6month old daughter" and jump immediately to "This baby must be a binary clone, because there is no way T'Pol has never been pregnant, because she would have told me," because, frankly, who ever really thinks about binary clones if they're not genetists? The average engineer is more likely to hear "you have a 6month old daughter," think back to the last person he had sex with, realize that the time frame could have fit, and create crazy ideas from there on how it happened.

I realize that my possible how-Terra-Prime-stole-a-TnT-embryo is a bit far fetched and improbable, but the fact remains there's enough could havesin it that you could make yourself believe it or had a talented fanfic writer take it up. As you said, SB, MA only tells us what's in the episodes. If you look, "Stratagem," is known to have occured on Dec 12, 2153. "Harbringer" is the episode directly after this. We know "Countdown" occurs Feb 13, 2154. Two months between. We don't know when "Home" took place exactly, only that it was shortly after "Zero Hour," which takes place on the same day as "Countdown," and before the next episode dated episode, "Borderland," which has 17 May, 2154 as it's stardate. You could, if you were a stressed human wondering if you had a 6month old child out there, fit the facts to make it work, rather like fanfic authors do all the time.

[honeybee]

Conventional wisdom about interspecies breeding, which at the time of TOS would have supported the idea that conception was not possible, has been turned on its ear. Zedonks, Ligers, Beefalo and other half-breed animals have been born over and over again without intervention.

So, it's not impossible that a baby would be conceived naturally - just very unlikely. I've heard from science types and posters more knowledgeable than me, given the difference in blood types, body temperature and the like, that carrying the child rather than a conception would be the difficult thing. Anti-rejection drugs or some kind of artificial womb would probably be in order. Given that we saw Sim raised in a tank, it's plausible that something like that could have happened. Lady Rainbow's current story is making wonderful use out of the artificial womb concept.

In my story Dusk, I just worked around the whole mess by saying that Vulcan genes were dominate so T'Pol's body didn't reject the kid. I added in some genetic technobabble that the conception was rare, but not impossible. A stretch? Sure, but it made good plot.

I'm with you, aadarshinah. Trip was rightfully freaked out in Demons. In a future, warp capable world, it wouldn't be totally outrageous to think that an embryo could be transplanted and/or raised in an artificial womb. T'Pol was on Vulcan for weeks after Home, so something could have happened then. Not that I think T'Pol ever would have lied about something so huge, but in a confused and stressful moment, I can see where Trip would want to be assured of such.

[Enerdhil]

One main question is how Terra Prime developed a clone? For 'normal' gestation - based on an removed embryo or DNA mating followed by assisted womb (human or artificial) pregnancy - they would need 15 months (that is, they should start by Oct 2153). But Enterprise was in the Expanse, so there would be no way to have the DNA's from the ship as stated.

[WarpGirl]

Woah! Elizabeth was a binary clone, and nobody is accusing T'Pol of lying. This whole topic of, how many times did TnT have sex; and what proof can you offer is very vehement...

Since the biggest piece of evidence that they were having sex more than once after Harbinger seems to be T'Pol telling Trip "I have never been pregnant" it is fun to come up with theories to either prove or reject the idea. But I personally think that T'Pol was just as stressed as Trip in Demons and made a blanket statement. She had never been pregnant, period not by Trip or anyone else. Quite understandable as to why she was making a blanket statement, she wanted to reassure Trip, and vent a little. But it does not have to be taken as some kind of evidence of when they were having sex or how many times they had it.

Do I think they were having sex after Bound? 99.999999999% likely. But the whole issue arose when I said I didn't believe they had sex again after Harbinger until Bound. And one day I will learn to keep my mouth shut and not have any opinions, because they just cause trouble.

Did anyone else think it was cool that Koss sent a paper letter to T'Pol's house? We rarely see paper in Trek, so when I see it I get excited.

[Kotik]

I think it is rather unlikely that Trip and T'Pol had any 'official' romantic relationship between "Zero Hour" and "Home". Closest they came to anything even remotely resembling romance, was that T'Pol accepted the casual touch of Trip in the 'age revealing scene'.

If they had had a steady romantic relationship, ackowledged by both of them, then T'Pol would have asked Trip to go to Vulcan with her a lot earlier. She only did so, when she realized that Trip had nowhere to go (which leaves the question why he doesn't think about visiting his folks, after all they only relocated, they aren't dead).

[WarpGirl]

Yeah I have to admit Trip not seeing his family kind of was like this dangling loose end out there. I wish they had explained why. At least have T'Pol ask why! He hadn't really accepted the grief until Damage, it is possible that he just wasn't ready to be surrounded by memories and family yet. But why not say so? Instead you have this gigantic... out there. That could have been avoided by one line.