Vulcan Arc

[honeybee]

Yeah, I think prior to Home - Trip was just watching and waiting and hopeful she'd come around. I think the bond was forming, even then. And it's not like he didn't tell her off in E2. He did. So, he didn't put up with everything. But he was smart enough to know that a Vulcan was going to react differently from a human.

Post-Home, I think that's when he was really hurt and didn't know what to do. I think the writing did drag things out and could have handled it better, but he was trying to do the right thing by her and when he chose to leave Enterprise, the right thing by himself. With the bond and even just being close to T'Pol, he must have sensed, at least subconsciously, her devastation after The Vulcan Arc.

The complete shut-out in "Daedalus" was neither right nor logical IMHO.

It's logical if you've realized you've broken a man's heart, and his offer to help is based in a desire for a relationship you cannot give him. But I tend to have a compassionate view of both characters.

[Kotik]

It's logical if you've realized you've broken a man's heart, and his offer to help is based in a desire for a relationship you cannot give him.

I tend to think you're being unfair with him at that point. Considering that the message about the official dissolving of her marriage didn't come before "Babel One", I think that Trip didn't know about the divorce, so the implication that his need to help was a means to foster a relationship of sorts is a bit unfair. Trip had settled for being friends at that time and the main factor to offer help was mainly driven by an urge to repay the debt he owed her for helping him cope with lizzies death. But by shutting him out as she did, she even denied him the friendship as she reduced any contact between them to the duty hours. Either I'm completely dense or that doesn't make any bit of sense

[Rigil Kent]

Plus, didn't he find out about the dissolving of the marriage from Archer, not from her? That says everything, IMO, and is not a positive reflection on her part.

It's logical if you've realized you've broken a man's heart, and his offer to help is based in a desire for a relationship you cannot give him.

Not cannot. Will not. Big difference, IMO.

[aadarshinah]

It's hard to be in a successful relationship if you're not comfortable with yourself - which its hard to be if you were just part of a cultural/religous revolution on your planet.

[honeybee]

I maintain I have compassion for both characters in this situation. She's a big, fat mess - and she's attempting to do the right thing. She comes off as cruel, but I don't believe she intends to be cruel. She doesn't know if she can give him what he needs, doesn't want to be hurt again, doesn't want him to be hurt again. She's reeling from the divorce, which I believed shocked her even though she did not want to be in the marriage. She has every right to be confused. I'm not saying she behaved perfectly, but I am saying that she isn't a cruel, calculating bitch - of course, I don't think all women are, so my views are definitely colored by that. And for the record, I don't see Trip's behavior toward her as weakness. He too always tries to do right by her, he just isn't in a position to know what that is. I see him giving her up in Home as an act of strength and grace, since he was the only one who actually asked what she wanted and listened to her.

Bound, which I wish had come earlier, gives him insight that allows him to take a stronger position.

[pdsldl]

It's logical if you've realized you've broken a man's heart, and his offer to help is based in a desire for a relationship you cannot give him.

I tend to think you're being unfair with him at that point. Considering that the message about the official dissolving of her marriage didn't come before "Babel One", I think that Trip didn't know about the divorce, so the implication that his need to help was a means to foster a relationship of sorts is a bit unfair. Trip had settled for being friends at that time and the main factor to offer help was mainly driven by an urge to repay the debt he owed her for helping him cope with lizzies death. But by shutting him out as she did, she even denied him the friendship as she reduced any contact between them to the duty hours. Either I'm completely dense or that doesn't make any bit of sense

Her actions were based on what she knew about her divorce and Trip. She had been responsible for hurting him when she married and now she is unsure of what she feels and what she wants and she may know that once Trip knows she's free he'll be encouraged and try to reestablish a romantic relationship she is not prepared for so she shuts him down. I don't think she was being cruel if that had been her intent she wouldn't have gone to talk to him. It wouldn't have mattered if she told him about her divorce and that she only wanted to be friends. Trip wanted more and it would have been difficult for T'Pol to stand by and watch him try to just be her friend once there was no Koss to come between them. Very few people I know have ever made that work.

[honeybee]

Being friends with a man that you aren't in love with with when you know he's in love with you - that's cruel and leading. And when you are unsure? That's even worse, because you're going to send mixed messages. T'Pol sent quite a few of those in The Expanse, and I think she very probably didn't want to put Trip through that again. She needed, rightfully, to get her head on straight.

I didn't care for the pacing and would have preferred to see things paced differently, but her intentions were never cruel.

[Rigil Kent]

I guess I don't particularly like the T'Pol you're espousing there, honeybee. I perceived her as being in love with Trip and just trying to suppress it, but "being friends with a man that you aren't in love with with when you know he's in love with you" doesn't exactly paint a positive light on her. So it frankly boils down to the simple fact that I didn't like the T'Pol characterization throughout season 4. She's 66 years old, but they wrote her like she was 13 and in the throes of her first adolescent crush. Blech.

I maintain that if they had rearranged some of the key events of season 4, the whole thing would have made more sense.

• Have Archer tell Trip at the beginning of the Augment arc that SFC is threatening to transfer Tucker to COL to get it squared away.
• Observer Effect is moved to between Augment Arc & Vulcan arc.
• Trip is transferred at the end of Vulcan arc (his subplot becomes SFC grooming for command of the NX-03 or -04, not him just mooning after her), before T'Pol even returns to ENT. So when she comes back, grieving and confused, her rock is gone.
• White scenes begin earlier than normal.
• Trip gets COL functioning at beginning of Romulan arc, so ENT & COL work together. But Trip is still ChEng of COL at the end & not sure where he stands w/T'Pol - he's getting tired of her mixed messages and is just trying to move on with his life since she's acting like she's not interested in even being his friend anymore.
• Klingon arc can mostly play out like it did.
• Bound plays out.

It's hard to be in a successful relationship if you're not comfortable with yourself

Which is frankly why I'm afraid any relationship T'Pol is in would ultimately be doomed because she never seems comfortable with herself. Ever.

[honeybee]

Dude, Rigil, you're my bud - but I'm not saying T'Pol wanted to be friends with Trip knowing he was in love with her- I'm saying she was in love with him but was unsure of what she wanted to do with those feelings and felt the "just friends" thing wasn't the right path because it would be cruel to both of them. It's as if, emotionally, she was a teenager in The Expanse. The whole Habinger aftermath and the "let's be friends" and "this wasn't an emotional thing" was very teenage. But after The Forgotten and even E2, she seems to mature. Home derails the baby steps to maturity, but she does comprehend what she did to Trip in Home, and she's not happy with herself.

I definitely, totally, and completely think she was in love with him. I don't think she was suppressing it, either. I think she didn't know if she was capable of giving him what he needed or could make a relationship with him work. I think she needed to get on solid emotional (for a Vulcan) footing. She had to let him go, not string him along, so she could get herself together. I think she is in pain there, too, because she recognizes that this might be the end for them. But she thinks it is the best decision, since she knows she's not capable of being in a relationship.

I'm not even arguing that she's doing the right thing, because it could be that Trip is in a position to help her. But she thinks she's doing the right thing.

[Rigil Kent]

Ah. Okay. That tracks mostly with how I saw it. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I misunderstood what you said initially.

But yeah ... do not like the characterization of her in season 4. Which is probably why I honestly can't remember the last time I watched a complete ep. And why I've glumly come to the conclusion that the whole mess in the so-called series finale is totally believable with how she was written. At some point, Trip would just give up.

[honeybee]

No problem, Rigil! Even when if/when we disagree, I give you props!

Yeah, even with the whole shes-not-human and sees the world differently, Trip would have given up. But then again, he does - that's why he leaves the ship. On the other hand, I've known some people who have held torches for far longer and under far worse circumstances that Trip does! Humans most certainly aren't logical when it comes to love.

I still would have liked to see them more coupled up in Season 4 than they were - and again - bad pacing in part because -ahem - certain writers were not backing the ship while others were.

[WarpGirl]

I see T'Pol a lot like Honeybee so I would think that she realized she hurt him in Harbinger and E2 so that's why I would agree with KTR (who is brilliant) that they were taking it slow before Home.

Here's a question that came to me... Trip and T'Pol weren't having sex after she married Koss. I think that's safe to say given Trip's spoken views in Stigma, so even if T'Pol offered he'd turn her down. Yet, as soon as she's free he immediately wants to re-start their relationship. Why bother if he hadn't gotten anything but pain and sex before? The consensus is "sex drives everything" but if that was true, than why didn't he give up hope?

I think the question is whether sex would drive Trip "keep connected." Based on the fact that Trip was still involved with Natalie when he left earth, and his relationship with T'Pol. I would say that sex isn't what keeps him with women, but what he feels is what drives him. He feels love, respect, friendship, for T'Pol. He was begining to feel all of that before they had sex.

Yes he had (or attempted to have) casual encounters. However, he wasn't trying to make real relationships with any of them. T'Pol he took seriously.

As for T'Pol, Trip has been the closest person to her on the ship basically from the begining. Why would she want to lose that closeness after all she's been through? Keeping that closeness through sex would be cruel, and even she would know that.

[Enerdhil]

Being friends with a man that you aren't in love with with when you know he's in love with you

Oh oh, it appears that Trip never told he was in love with her. He only admitted it to T'Les. After more than one year circling around, this might lead any woman to doubt what he really wants...

Something that I cannot understand: if they hadn't other relations apart from the initial one, how would they establish a bond? If we believe on that assumption, she was only 'exploring'. He, from the next day morning, was not comfortable about too. The bond couldn't be established only because of Trip's feelings (more, if not told to her) as humans were no telepaths. Up to Bound, except for the short T'Pol's trials during the Augments mini arch (when she is refused by him), she didn't show, specifically, attraction to him. I can only assume a bond being formed if both are willing to it and, as Vulcans are only touch telepaths, this also implies some intimate touching (hands touching during work doesn't appear to be effective, because T'Pol several times has done it to other members of the crew).

[WarpGirl]

1. Vulcans are not only touch-telepaths.

2. T'Pol also taught Trip breathing techniques, and beginning medtitation techniques. Not the deep stuff but surface stuff.

3. Neuropressure is very intimate touching 3 times a week for months! That could be enough if two people were attracted to each other. Especially since T'Pol's emotions were close to the surface, the pa'nar, the anomolies, and mild TD exposier until they knew it was toxic. Remember that mine she was in? Added to that she started taking the stuff weeks before she jumped him, and the bond could have been formed.

[Kotik]

They both know that they want more than friendship. T'Pol's denial after Harbinger makes no sense. I do not jump someones bones and then shut him/her down the next day. Trellium allowed her to access emotions, she wasn't stoned or non compos mentis, so she knew what she was doing. I said earlier that everything after "Harbinger" made her appear cruel, because she was written that way.

I don't buy the 'confused because of revolution on Vulcan' stuff. I've been born and raised in east germany. Within days everything that we've been taught for a lifetime was suddenly wrong. We adapted and went on with life. The marriage in "Home" and the subsequent release in "Kir'Shara" was only a tool to buy the writers the time of 5 or 6 episodes to avoid having to write a successfull relationship. Manny Coto is a TOS fan, he probably wanted to preserve Sarek and Amanda as the first succesful pairing, too. Due to that truckload of contrived will-they-won't-they both characters Trip and T'Pol were damaged in a way. They were portrayed as cruel, stupid, weak - take your pick.