Kind of wife TPol would be?

[justTripn]

Right. I think the mistake would be in codifying. It's OK to observe that "Men/women seem to be generally this way or generally that way." It's not OK to think a particular person OUGHT to be a certain way because they appear to be a certain sex.

Also with regard to the gender roles: Trip was never particularly protective of T'Pol. He never balked at her having a dangerous assignment. Of course they weren't married in the show, but he never blinked when she was given a dangerous assignment, right up through and including Terra Prime.

[WarpGirl]

Yes he did... In The Aenar.

[aadarshinah]

I think the blinking had more to do that she was testing an unknown peice of equiptment with a telepathic skill she had not truely developed in that episode than the fact that she was doing something dangerous. In episodes where she's doing something "normally" dangerous, he seems to know she can take care of herself.

[Alelou]

I actually thought that was a bit of a false note in "The Aenar," because it's true, he wasn't usually protective of her in the usual course of her job. It seemed like an excuse to have that scene with Phlox, and then the departure for Columbia.

Of course, sometimes I also think it was a false note that those two would be involved as much as they were and not be more obviously concerned about each other's safety. For example, when Trip pooh-poohed Soval's mention in "The Forge" or whatever it was about being concerned for T'Pol and Archer, it just seemed kind of weird to me. It was almost as if they knew they were regulars in a television show and would undoubtedly be back next week...

But I don't know, maybe this is also a combat ethos? If your life is on the line more or less constantly, do you just stop consciously thinking about it for yourself and others in order not to crack up?

[honeybee]

What's attractive to a lot of people about the pairing is some of the "traditional" gender reversals. Archer has two advisors. Trip voices the emotional side; T'Pol voices the logical side. She's the badass, ex-spy. He's the "caretaker", though he cares for the engines and the ship. It's not a hard reversal, as things are fluid, but it does apply on some levels.

[WarpGirl]

I think the whole concept of "traditional gender rolls" is really bogus. Right or wrong, men and women have collectively decided over generations how to define their rolls in society. Over generations they've changed and adapted.

Men and women, no matter what the spieces are desinged differently. Therefore both have different advantages over the other, and both bring those into a partnership. Despite Trip's experience he will never carry his and T'Pol's child. And T'Pol will never be able to physically impregnate him.

There is that transgendered "man" who has had kids, but that too needed a doner.

Bottom line the dynamics and gender rolls in TnT's relationship are up to them. Especially since they might be the first ever human/vulcan couple. So saying their gender rolls are reversed, makes no sense to me. Maybe I have fluff in my ears...

[honeybee]

Well, considering you called me out earlier for objecting to the idea that they would conform to traditional mid-twentieth century gender roles, I don't know what you've got in your ears either. And the notion that society never proscribed such roles is absurd.

However, it terms of literary allegory, the moon, the night, emotions, water and other symbols are traditionally associated with the feminine, while the sun, the day, reason, fire and mountains are traditionally associated with the masculine. If you look at Apollo and Artemis, his symbol is the sun and hers in the moon. However, even in ancient times, this symbolism was fluid. I've heard TnT compared to the characters Psyche & Eros, a myth where she represents logic, reason and the mind, and he represents emotion, passion and the body.

Thankfully, we can agree on the idea that TnT would define themselves rather than let society do it for them, with dynamics being fluid.

[Silverbullet]

Although in a way the 50's gender role was shown in Ent.

T'Pol only used her Vulcan Nerve Pinch once and that was in Acquisition. Never used it again. she had opportunity. She also supposedly was a trained kick ass female good in Vulcan martial arts. Yet she never used them.

Also, Super Archer had to help the damsel in distress: in n the Seventh it was Archer to the rescue. In the Forge he went along to find her mother. He deserted his post and left Trip in charge without any authority to lead the investigation or negotiate. Archer was the guy who idd everything and T'Pol cradles his head in her lap. Even in Terra Prime she could have used the Nerve Pinch to disable the guy who was taking her back to lock her up. Nope. Again it is Archer to the rescue. T'Pol was treated like the 50's females. Helpless without the big, strong male around to take care of things.

Only time I saw Trip doing anthing like that was when he was doing the cold start on the Warp drives and he ran to the bulkhead where she was crouched.

[honeybee]

While the fact that Archer was always put into the heroic role is a fair criticism of the show, I hardly think T'Pol was always the damsel in distress. She's seen fighting many times, and she contributes intelligently to problem solving more times that you can count. Her technical skills are often used, including helping Trip in Engineering. She uses the nerve pinch twice - in Strange New World and in Acquisition. She fights the Klingons with skills you certainly wouldn't see in a 1950s era piece, and even when she is harmed by Rajinn or Tolaris - she fights harder than a 1950s female. And remember, with Rajinn - Archer couldn't fight at all. He didn't even know what hit him. She survives torture by the Suliban with her faculties in tact enough to help retake the ship. She also arguably saves the ship in Singularity, though she needs to revive Archer to accomplish that goal. I disagree that needing Archer makes her weak, but rather I see recognizing that she needs help making her strong. There should have been more episodes where Archer understood he needed others.

She certainly is Archer's second, more often assisting. But it's collaboration that makes good story.

[Rigil Kent]

She uses the nerve pinch twice - in Strange New World and in Acquisition

Four times. She also used it in "Hatchery" against a MACO in Engineering and also against Phlox in "Singularity."

That said, I do wish they had allowed T'Pol to be more a proactive character and kind of agree that she was more often than not portrayed as the character in distress - her martial arts abilities, for example, showed up only in "Marauders" and were completely forgotten later in episodes where they could have been quite useful (e.g. "North Star"), and she was quite often written as less capable than Archer ... but that was a failing of the writing regarding Archer because it happened with all the other characters. I don't agree that she was always the damsel-in-distress, but it happened too often for my tastes.

[honeybee]

Good catches, Rigil. I forgot about those two.

I, mean, you can cherry pick out the moments where Archer saves her and it certainly annoys. Archer saves Trip a few times, too. But she's by no means a weak character. In fact, as you pointed out, she suffers way more than any person - Vulcan or Human - could realistically survive and comes out standing tall. I think she's often also tough and pro-active in most cases, and she hardly sits around waiting for someone to rescue her. It's just that Archer is often the person finally saves the day. But yes, I would have liked to see her martial arts/spy skills be used more often in a pinch.

I do like Hatchery, since it does give TnT a chance to work together and be pro-active, and Archer doesn't in fact save anything, except for the Xindi babies. It can almost be read like a parody of the most annoying aspects of Super Archer.

[Rigil Kent]

I do like Hatchery, since it does give TnT a chance to work together and be pro-active, and Archer doesn't in fact save anything, except for the Xindi babies. It can almost be read like a parody of the most annoying aspects of Super Archer.

"Hatchery" is one of my guilty pleasures. I like that Trip stuns Archer (heh), and that T'Pol is in a Starfleet uniform (huzzah!), and she uses the Nerve Pinch, and so on.

But honestly? My favorite bit is the final sickbay scene where Trip doesn't say a thing. T'Pol explains to the situation to Hayes, then gives Trip a "let's go" look, and Tucker just falls into step with her. That makes me laugh every time.

[Silverbullet]

That "Let's go" look in Hatchery. What was that all about? Was she saying "play time"? Trip obviously knew what she meant and wanted because he followed her out of the door without question. It was one scene that always puzzled me. I ofen thought htat there should have been one more scene explaining the results of that look. Maybe one was planned but got the axe.

[panyasan]

Maybe they both wanted a good hot shower to get that sticky stuff from the hatchery off of them. Or they rather spent time together then having a discussing in sickbay. Kind of shows how close they have become, IMHO.

[Reanok]

T'Pol defended herself against that criminal in Carpenter street she karate kicked the guy when he pulled a knife on her when they were inthe bad guy's car waiting for Archer to look for the xindi reptillians.She stunned him with her phaser.