Archer as Captain

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

KTR, weren't you a Sergeant in the Swedish Army at one tine?

Yeah, but just a mandatory drafted one. But we've abolished the draft now - this summer in fact.

Sweden hsn't had a war for some centures but they maintain an Army.

Not much left of that now, I'm afraid. I'll be sure to remind the Minister of Defence of that when I meet him on Sunday...

Ladies and Gents the man leads a life of adventure.

Not really. It comes with the job, especially during election time (we have one next Sunday, I thought I had mentioned that). All sorts of Ministers are on the campaign trail now. So far I've met five, including the PM, these past weeks.

Hey have you ever met that hottie Prince of yours over there?

Nope! And I'd rather met Princess Madeleine. Now that's a real hottie.

[aadarshinah]

Also a Marine Major outranks a Lt. so in actuality Malcolm should have been under Hayes all along! That part really ticked me off when they got it wrong. Especially because Enterprise was now "officially" a cobat military vessel.

Techinically, yes, but the position Reed holds as Security Officer on Enterprise outranks Hayes' position as head of the MACO contingent on the ship. If the MACOs aren't another branch of service entirely (ie, Marines to Starfleet's Navy, or possibly Air Force, however you want to look at it), they're at least in a different chain of command and are guests aboard Enterprise. Therefore the people in charge of the ship get to be in charge over them by default... or something like that, I think.

But in season 3 she technically is a private Vulcan citizen...

I'm sorry, but this thought just came to me... if she's a private citizen functioning in a military capacity on a military ship, doesn't that make her a military contractor...? I've no idea why I find this idea as hillarious as I do, but, god, I've got the giggles now...

[WarpGirl]

Techinically, yes, but the position Reed holds as Security Officer on Enterprise outranks Hayes' position as head of the MACO contingent on the ship. If the MACOs aren't another branch of service entirely (ie, Marines to Starfleet's Navy, or possibly Air Force, however you want to look at it), they're at least in a different chain of command and are guests aboard Enterprise. Therefore the people in charge of the ship get to be in charge over them by default... or something like that, I think.

Well they tried to make it appear that way. And since SF is a completely different beast than what we consider to be a modern military, it just squeaks by. However, It was still very annoying.

I'm sorry, but this thought just came to me... if she's a private citizen functioning in a military capacity on a military ship, doesn't that make her a military contractor...? I've no idea why I find this idea as hillarious as I do, but, god, I've got the giggles now...

If T'Pol had a formal agreement with SF (I can't remember if she did) then yes she would be a military contractor. If she was just working for Archer, then no not technically. But like I said I can't remember if Archer just brought her along, or he got SF to sign off on it.

PS isn't funny we have the a quote from the same person in our sigs?

[WarpGirl]

Nope! And I'd rather met Princess Madeleine. Now that's a real hottie.

Actually she looks like an old friend of mine. But Come on KTR I'm gonna have different tastes than you being that I'm a woman who loves men.

I still say you've got an interesting life.

[aadarshinah]

Well they tried to make it appear that way. And since SF is a completely different beast than what we consider to be a modern military, it just squeaks by. However, It was still very annoying.

I agree. They could've just settled it for us by promoting Reed to whatever the SF version of O-4 was before Lt. Cmdrs. came along.... but maybe we are thinking too much like modern military. If there are only 4 non-flag officer ranks (Ensign, Lt., Commander, and Captain), maybe the standard NATO ranking doesn't apply. After all, that would be like going from O-1 to O-2 to O-4 to O-5 in a modern navy. Maybe with whatever system they use in the 2150s, Lt. is roughly equivelent to Major...

In DS9, when Kira is promoted to Lt. Colonel towards the end of the series and is breifly commissioned in Starfleet as a Commander, which is its equivlent NATO rank. Before this she was a Major, and, going down one Starfleet rank from there we'd get (in 2275) an Lt. Commander. As there was no Lt. Commander rank in SF at the time, I guess that means a good old Lt. would have been the equivolent.

Either way, the MACOs could have been used more effectively in ENT, I think, and Archer should probably have consulted them a little more often on ground operations then he did (but he might have been "tricked' out of doing this by Reed, by which I mean unaware of the powerplay going on between Reed and Hayes until "Harbringer" and until then assumed that everything Reed was telling him had been veted by Hayes)... I guess that if you cobbble together one trained-but-untested Major and one real-life-experience-but-little-formal-"military"-training Captain, you could get one pretty decent battle field commander.

PS isn't funny we have the a quote from the same person in our sigs?

Of Human Bondage is one of my favourite books ever. What little you can't learn from The Brothers Karamazov you can learn from it.

[Silverbullet]

Thot, a far as I know neither Sweden or Switzerland are in the peace keeping business. I may wrong but I hve not read of any of thier troops inn Africa.

Maccos would be useful to ward off boarders. They know hand t hand combat. something that the Security people might know a little about but not enough. I always thought they were brought on board for the purpose of hand to hand combat either on the surface of a planet or aboard ship.

I agree with WG that Hayes did outrank Reed even though they were in different militarys. But again raised the question of if Hayes rank counted on board Enterprise other than with the MAACO's. That has been the bone of contention with me as far as T'Pol goes. Her rank was from the VHC not Starfleet yet she claimed she outranked Trip and that was accepted by Archer. given that then Hayes should outrank Reed.

Archer was a Test Pilot before he was put in commmand of Enterprise. He had no command experience (that was noted in any episode.) he was flying by the seat of his pants. He may have attended Command school before he was promoted to Captain and given command of Enterprise. But doubt if he was sent to any Diplomatic training.

WG is again right Hayes may have been able to give Archer some advice because he probably would have been given military tactics training.

[Silverbullet]

Double post. Although there were no Lt Commander on board Entrprise that doesn't mean the rank didn't exist in Starfleet. I always thought that Reed should have been Lt Commander given that he was Tactcle Officer, Armory Officer and head of Security.

also thought that Trip should have had a Lt. commander as his second in command in Engineering.

Hoshi and Travis were Ensigns.they should have been promoted to Lt J.G's automaticaly after six months. NO way could they be Ensigns for four years.

You are confusing Nato ranks with U.S. Ranks. While most are the same some aren't.

SB

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

Thot, a far as I know neither Sweden or Switzerland are in the peace keeping business. I may wrong but I hve not read of any of thier troops inn Africa.

Well, Sweden is. We were in the Congo in the 1960s and we've had peacekeepers in various parts of the globe over the years. Lebanon, Cyprus, Bosnia, Kosovo, Congo (again), Tchad. Now we have troops in, among other places, Afghanistan and off the Somali coast.

[WarpGirl]

I agree. They could've just settled it for us by promoting Reed to whatever the SF version of O-4 was before Lt. Cmdrs. came along.... but maybe we are thinking too much like modern military.

Well that's one thing I will never, ever argue with! Whether you equate ENT Starfleet with a NASA type organizarion, or full blown military, it is nothing like any military we know today. But by the time TOS and forward it becomes slightly more recognizable.

Either way, the MACOs could have been used more effectively in ENT, I think, and Archer should probably have consulted them a little more often on ground operations then he did... I guess that if you cobbble together one trained-but-untested Major and one real-life-experience-but-little-formal-"military"-training Captain, you could get one pretty decent battle field commander.

Sorry I tore up this part of the quote but I wanted to deal with each part seperately.

AGREED! I thought the MACO's could have been the most brilliant things ENT did for Trek, showing how the "traditional" military forces of earth merged with Starfleet, and gave birth to the Starfleet we are used too. Had they used Hayes in such a manner to help Archer out, both Archer and the series could have gone through a spectacular transformation!

That and Steven Culp would have made more of an amazing addition than he already had to the cast. How could they waste his talent like they did? And yes I am furious about that and I will not appologize.

(but he might have been "tricked' out of doing this by Reed, by which I mean unaware of the powerplay going on between Reed and Hayes until "Harbringer" and until then assumed that everything Reed was telling him had been veted by Hayes)...

What they did to Malcolm's character, and the place they put an actor like Steven Culp with that relationship was a tragic mistep. A dedicated man like the one they established Reed to be in seasons 1 & 2 would have never put his own vanity, and position before what was best for the mission. I rationalize the whole thing with telling myself he was not coping well with the attack on earth, however that makes the dis-service to his character even worse. His loyalty to Archer should have compelled him to make sure he did use all of his tactical resources effectively. He is after all the tactical officer!

PS. I didn't actually read the book. It is on my list, but I found the quote in a West Wing fanfic and I loved it dearly.

[enterprikayak]

Thot, a far as I know neither Sweden or Switzerland are in the peace keeping business. I may wrong but I hve not read of any of thier troops inn Africa.

Well, Sweden is. We were in the Congo in the 1960s and we've had peacekeepers in various parts of the globe over the years. Lebanon, Cyprus, Bosnia, Kosovo, Congo (again), Tchad. Now we have troops in, among other places, Afghanistan and off the Somali coast.

We've always been considered peacekeepers in Canada, but with the latest govts we've suffered under, I start to wonder sometimes. Man I hate Harper.

The dude actually TOOK DOWN all the historical pictures at 24 sussex drive (our "white house") and put up all new pictures of just him.

This is is latest Christmas Card (2009) to the Nation:



Yes. It is, in FACT, Stephen Harper...looking at pictures....of STEPHEN HARPER!



AND he's nothing to look at! Like, WHAT EXACTLY IS HE GRINNING ABOUT HERE? His ever-present pancake makeup and lipgloss? His toupee hairdo?

GOD, I HATE HIM SO MUCH!

sorry [/rant]

[WarpGirl]

Now you're gonna make me call my sister and find out what you're talking about ek! That sounds like a story John King should have done on CNN or Rick Sanchez on Rick's List also CNN. I'm not really into politics, but I've just got crushes on all the men of CNN!

[aadarshinah]

What they did to Malcolm's character, and the place they put an actor like Steven Culp with that relationship was a tragic mistep. A dedicated man like the one they established Reed to be in seasons 1 & 2 would have never put his own vanity, and position before what was best for the mission. I rationalize the whole thing with telling myself he was not coping well with the attack on earth, however that makes the dis-service to his character even worse. His loyalty to Archer should have compelled him to make sure he did use all of his tactical resources effectively. He is after all the tactical officer!

That's the best I can think of too, and that Archer had isolated himself too much to realize what was going on with his staff.

PS. I didn't actually read the book. It is on my list, but I found the quote in a West Wing fanfic and I loved it dearly.

It's one of the few turn-of-the-century books I actually like. It kinda strikes me like a cross between what you'd expect of a turn-of-the-century book and A Prayer For Owen Meany... which is also one of my fav books.

[panyasan]

Very OT:

Nope! And I'd rather met Princess Madeleine. Now that's a real hottie.

Well, I have this nice pic of the Swedisch princess Madeleine:

Stupid question, while we all talking about the militairy - if a MACO is a Sergeant and get promoted, what kind of rank would he hold? I am totally confused about any ranks.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

^ Yeah! That's the one. I have that exact same pic pinned on my board.

I have a solution to the rank discrepancy between Reed and Hayes. What if Hayes weren't a real Major (Marine O-4), just a Captain (Marine O-3). But since there can only be one Captain (Navy O-6) on a vessel, so as to not confuse people who is the commanding officer, Hayes would receive a temporary grade bump to Major, while technically not be one. I think I read somewhere that this can happen.

[WarpGirl]

IDK that is so rare. In any case, he still would be an acting Major, and therfore of higher rank than Malcolm. Anyway you slice it, he wasn't used properly by Archer. In fact as brilliant as the MACO's were as a concept, they were used like toy soldiers.