Imagine: ENT entering its final season

[JadziaKathryn]

Rigil, I think you're right about low expectations in Trek, but I also must add that to those of us non-military types, the MACOS can look pretty efficient and impressive. I'm not saying that justifies sloppy writing, but just idly noting something.

Seriously? You thought they were impressive? *shakes head* There's a laundry list of things that they did wrong, things that I would have recognized as being wrong before I ever considered joining the military...

Yes, seriously. I don't notice their talked-of errors like you did. On the other hand, I was always bothered by T'Pol's French manicure in Terra Prime...

Although I'd rather they focus on the characters we already have instead of introducing even more...

Well, I'd like them to expand more on the characters we have, but at the same time I'd like to see some of the others now and again, like they did with Vorik on VOY. He popped up a couple of times. I mean, the senior staff aren't the only ones on the ship.

[Elessar]

Rigil, I think you're right about low expectations in Trek, but I also must add that to those of us non-military types, the MACOS can look pretty efficient and impressive. I'm not saying that justifies sloppy writing, but just idly noting something.

Seriously? You thought they were impressive? *shakes head* There's a laundry list of things that they did wrong, things that I would have recognized as being wrong before I ever considered joining the military...

Yes, seriously. I don't notice their talked-of errors like you did. On the other hand, I was always bothered by T'Pol's French manicure in Terra Prime...

Although I'd rather they focus on the characters we already have instead of introducing even more...

Well, I'd like them to expand more on the characters we have, but at the same time I'd like to see some of the others now and again, like they did with Vorik on VOY. He popped up a couple of times. I mean, the senior staff aren't the only ones on the ship.

They should have maybe had Hoshi giving T'Pol beauty secrets in a past episode, to foretell that

Here's my brief opinion on the MACOs in most of what I can recall of what's been argued about. I respect that Rigil has the most wordly of opinions of the armed forces, being former Army infantry. I have a tough time myself classifying what the MACOs really are, partially because I always thought it was stupid that they made up a stupid name like "MACO" when they had a beautiful opportunity to introduce the "Starfleet Marine" concept, since they've GOT to have ground troops in Starfleet and we've never seen them. In the modern military, troops that perform the two tasks of 1) being carried by vessel for sea-born deployment, 2) carrying out ship's security, are by definition, Marines. If we consider the MACOs, then, Marines not by name but by practice, then they're a line ground force, BUT, can be rated as "Special Operations Capable" as a few Marine expeditionary units today are. Personally, I think a force that's at least SOC is necessary to explain some of the actions that the MACOs planned an executed during Season 3 on Enteprise. I believe that the intention was to convey that they employed unconventional tactics, thereby implying they are at least capable of conducting unconventional warfare, the very definition of a special operation.

As for Reed's place... I am inclined to say that we should defer to the modern Navy. Can anyone tell me who would be in charge of security on a battleship (not many in service, say 20 years ago)? I don't actually know. I wish I would have asked the guide on the Battleship New Jersey tour we took at Cherry Hill, but it didn't occur to me. If it's one of the Marine NCOs, I would go with Rigil's suggestion that it be a Gunny or a 1st Sgt or some other high ranking noncom. If it's a ship's officer, a Naval officer, then it could concievably be Reed. My gut feeling is that during the current state of shipboard protocols in Enterprise, Tactical and Security seem to be the same thing BEFORE Season 3, and then sort of divide during season 3 where Reed is in charge of Tactical (only related to attacking off-ship), and Hayes is in charge of Security. As we know, in TNG era they refer to the whole thing as "Security", and all ship's security officers/grunts are Starfleet. Which I find rather boring, but Star Trek has never made any effort to be martial. Some people might think MACOs would have a hard time taking orders from a ship's security Starfleet officer like Malcolm at first, especially in the case of any other starship BESIDES Enterprise where they did not suffer trials by fire along side Reed in the Expanse, but Marines are notoriously good at following orders even when it's arguable that they shouldn't. Besides that, lots of Marines take orders from Navy officers every day, and it's a similar situation.

Hey Rigil, I try to catch the military mistakes made in movies too... PM me what you noticed by the MACOs

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

The problem with making Security guys competent, though, is that goes directly against 40+ years of Trek history where they've firmly established that they weren't competent. Ever.

Why shouldn't we, who have this little mental exercise of a continuation of ENT, be able to improve on things such as this? This thread is about us imagining ourselves as exec producers/writers. It's not our "job" to perpetuate Trek incompetence.

It's why I've acknowledged that my Endeavour series is very obviously an AU that won't lead to TOS or TNG, since my Starfleet is actually a military.

It's AU because it's fanfic. All fanfic is by definition AU.

I see no problem with establishing a more military/realistic/competent stance here. There has been a Xindi conflict to shake things up and then comes the Romulan war. I can easily imagine that Starfleet reverts once these things are over and dealt with. They get lazy, complacent and not as combat competent in the following decades.

I'm not sure how you can say that they're necessarily understaffed, though, since I seem to recall that they established early in the series that sleeping space was already at a premium. (Still dunno where they put the MACOs at ...)

Such a statement (if it was made) doesn't wash considering the size and layout of the ship. It's been mentioned before that the ship should actually have more crew members when you look at how large it is.

I have rationalized this that the NX-01 was pressed into service (Broken Bow) before the crew was complete. Thus I see no problem where they'd house the MACOs. If sleeping space was a premium at original launch, then I just assume they hadn't finished making crew quarters out of the available space.

Besides, you yourself has put an officer-in-charge (Lt jg Reynolds, Hayes and Stiles respectively) of the MACOs on Endeavour, while the TAC is Lt Cmdr Eisler!

Apples and oranges. From it's original inception, Endeavour was intended to be a warship. Further, the OIC that you mention is primarily the WSO, not the security chief. Eisler's primary job has moved beyond TAC to a sort of co-XO.

So? We should be free to imagine a somewhat retro-fitted NX-01 as well. In fact, before they went into the Expanse they upgraded their armaments. And I'd bet they did it again after the extensive repairs they had to do after they came back.

I would make Reed take more command responsibilities here, after his promotion to Lt Cmdr, commanding shifts etc. He's 4IC. If the situation called for it, Archer and T'Pol were unavailable, I can plausibly think that Reed takes the big chair despite Trip being 3IC, since Trip might be more needed in engineering.

Although I'd rather they focus on the characters we already have instead of introducing even more...

I see no problem with them showing more than our regular characters. It makes for a more real feel to see familiar faces even if they spend most of the time in the background, only popping into the forefront when it was called for. Like Cutler and Rostov for example, or some of the MACOs in season three. Better than having a revolving door of new faces every episode.

In fact, I'd introduce more characters like that. I'd give Phlox a full-time nurse for example. Hess would be a good choice for Trip's 2IC at Engineering. And then this MACO Lieutenant (O-2) I'm imagining. That doesn't mean they should be focused upon. Just call them in when they're needed.

[Elessar]

I think character-poorness was one of the biggest problems. I don't think that "they could barely carry the big 3", no personal attack meant at all Rigil, but I don't think that tracks from the fact that the show did poorly in ratings WITH 3, I think it leaves open the possibility that they could have added more and helped it. I mean DS9 had like 7 main characters at its peak and I don't think it had 7 main characters because it was doing well, I think in part it was doing well because it had 7 characters. I would just argue that the causality goes the opposite direction, that if Enterprise had added good, complex, well written and well-acted characters, it would have helped. I don't believe there's a finite amoutn of interest to spread between the characters and if you further divide it, it gets thin, I think it's just the opposite where if you add more interesting people, you get more interest in the public.

One of my biggest complaints with Enterprise and why it didn't BUILD the Trekkie fanbase but rather just held onto the fanatics in most cases (like us! ) was because all the characters were, at least at first, squeaky-clean. Nobody had a dark side, which I know isn't Trek's style, but even B'Elanna had a dark side. Lon Suder was probably THE MOST INTERESTING character of Voyager, for that reason. Malcolm's S31 history made him so much more interesting, but his squeaky-cleanness from the first 4 years made it, frankly, a little hard for me to swallow for him. I liked it, but the character should have been written a little darker from the outset, a little less PBS-certified, to make that flow better. Same with Travis, imo that's what made him so bad, not just that he had no lines. That he was so 1-D.

[Mitchell]

Elessar Im pretty sure that the Marines stationed on US Warships, have always had a Marine Officer to answer to in the case of their roll in security on the ships. Im pretty sure that it would of been a Marine Officer in charge of ship's security (accept on Subs Since they dont bother stationing Marines on subs. ). Then ofcourse that offcier answers to the ship's CO.

One things for sure though, The Marines are not in any aspect in charge of a NAVY vessels weapon systems. Security an Weapons Officer, are two different positions. An thats the way it should be.

As to where they put up the MACOs after the Refit. Id imagine they gutted another, or maybe even two more science labs, an made them into a makeshift barracks for the MACOS.


Id certinly want to see the roll of security, an Tactical being seperated into the proper two differing positions on Trek Ships from now on. But untill TPTB finaly Get their heads out of their Arses, an get the rest of their shit straitened out (Like Captains leaving their center chair to lead landing parties, an get their ass's in trouble). I dont think another, even part time character is a good Idea. Even though While its incrediably stupid to have Reed run to take care of intruders, while he should be busy trying to blast the bad guy's ship out of the stars.

But Id honestly love an Old "tough as nails" NCO Gunny to be in charge of Ship's security.
A 22nd century Gunnery Sergeant Plumley Would be perfect. Id really love it if this character would cause Reed to soil himself.
Now we just gota ditch the dumb ass MACOS, replace them with Marines, Finaly get a CO with a brain in his head, an finaly turn Starfleet into a respectable Military service, instead of the Mentally challenged child of NASA that it has been.

Exploration is fine, but the role of Exploration, an Defence should not be combined To the extent Trek has done. Sure once in a rare while seeing some experiment being carried out on a Miliitary vessel is ok, but "Starfleet" should have a fleet of science vessels that only go where the Military has deemed it safe for them to go. An Im honestly more attatched to the Defencive/offincive aspect of the show over the Exploration. in case you all didnt know that already.

[Elessar]

Yeah, I'm not sure if you were talking to me or just stating for the record, but I never said Marines should have anything to do with ship's armament. Security and Tactical would be two different things if you had a security contingent onboard...otherwise you'd just have Starfleet tactical personnel performing security, as they were assumed to be doing prior to S3.

Oh and Hayes would be the equivalent of a Marine Officer in charge of the Marine contingent on a warship since he's a Major. I thought that rank was a little high for his position... how many MACOs were onboard? Not more than 30 I'd have thought, and Recon Marine platoons are composed of 23 men including a 1Lt (I refer to them since they are the special operations equivalent branch in the Corps). So, an Lt or CPT migh thave made a little more sense (to me).

I actually did ask the Navy guide that question, something to the effect of where the Marine officers' quarters were on the New Jersey but he must've not realized that I meant commissioned officers, because he started talking about where the NCOs' quarters were (which almost lead me to suspect that he was intimating there WAS no Marine commissioned officer aboard but I would be surprised by that). I didn't get the chance to ask him again to clarify my question, unfortunately.

On the question of science vessels, Mitchell, I think you're right, and I think it would be more likely that there ARE quite a few science vessels in Starfleet, perhaps even without warp drive, or with very rudimentary warp 1 capability. Only deep space experiments on nebulae or black holes or neutron stars would require a high-warp capable starship, in which case Starfleet could setup some kind of review board where scientists and research groups submit their requests for an opportunity to conduct an experiment aboard those few vessels LIKE Enterprise (like the ep. Daedalus, which was not my favorite) that are most capable of deep space exploration. That's analogous to how research projects get selected for the Shuttle, since it is the only (the various models, only one goes up at a time) in-service reusable spacecraft for people to use to get their experiments up there. But those circumstances would be on the fringe, and I think 80% of scientific exploration could be done on low, or no-warp capable starships, largely within the solar system.

[Rigil Kent]

There were 45 MACOs. See here

[Elessar]

Oh cool. Yeah, a Captain perhaps. Two platoons, perhaps even a Lt. in charge of each... but it wouldn't be necessary. One CO could probably get the job done because I believe line company platoons are bigger than the ~25 that go for Recon. What's the size of an infantry platoon in the Army, Rigil?

[CX]

If they have another officer, it should be a junior officer so Reed would actually outrank them... Or just promote Reed. Or ditch Starfleet security and just use MACOs. Either way, a junior officer or two, and some NCOs would be nice to see. If anyone needs their job split though, it would be T'Pol. XO is a full time job, because while the captain makes the decisions, the XO makes it happen.

[Rigil Kent]

Use a Gunnery Sergeant or something to command the security guys instead of putting another officer on the ship. Officers just get in the way and, if you keep putting them on the ship, it starts to look like the Soviet military.

The size of a platoon varies on numerous things (general manning issues, current state of deployment, job of the platoon, etc.) but is between 30 and 40 (4 squads) for a line infantry platoon and somewhere between 30 and 50 for a headquarters platoon. (For those that aren't aware of it, there are generally four to five platoons in a company, four to five companies in a battalion, and something like three to six battalions in a brigade.) Platoons are also commanded by lieutenants (2LT/O-1 - the equivalent of a Naval Ensign, or a 1LT/O-2), so having a Major/O-4 in charge of what amounts to a platoon is a serious misallocation of assets. Majors are at battalion level or higher, and apart from some SF types, aren't in the field like this. Which leads back to the very obvious intent of the execs to make the MACOs a "Special Forces" (which they obviously weren't), in which case, they would be split up differently than platoon elements (specifically, several A Teams and a single B Team).

I can't help but to point out that we're using modern US Navy/Marine Corps as a basis when it's pretty clear that UESPA Starfleet is very much not based on those templates in any incarnation of Trek (but especially ENT & TOS).

[JadziaKathryn]

One of my biggest complaints with Enterprise and why it didn't BUILD the Trekkie fanbase but rather just held onto the fanatics in most cases (like us! ) was because all the characters were, at least at first, squeaky-clean. Nobody had a dark side, which I know isn't Trek's style, but even B'Elanna had a dark side. Lon Suder was probably THE MOST INTERESTING character of Voyager, for that reason. Malcolm's S31 history made him so much more interesting, but his squeaky-cleanness from the first 4 years made it, frankly, a little hard for me to swallow for him. I liked it, but the character should have been written a little darker from the outset, a little less PBS-certified, to make that flow better. Same with Travis, imo that's what made him so bad, not just that he had no lines. That he was so 1-D.

I don't think you have to get into a deep, dark, tortured past to have a great character. Trip, for instance, is pretty "squeaky clean" BUT wasn't a flat character. I would've liked to have seen more of that.

[Rigil Kent]

The argument also doesn't hold up when you look at the numbers. Modern Trek began its ratings decline with DS9, so arguing that introducing more characters instead of focusing on the ones you have doesn't track.

The problem is plain and simple: exceedingly poor writing in the first two (or three, depending upon your perception) seasons that failed to capture the attention of the viewing audience, characters who were, unfortunately, all too often nothing more than stereotypes (the "maverick commander", the "alien observer who doesn't understand humanity" who, as it happens, is also the "ship's babe", the "engineer with an accent" who, as it happens, was also the "good ole boy from the South", the "stuffy Brit", etc.), and, of course, exceedingly poor support (which is the same as hostility) from the Network.

JMHO

ETA: Reference to the inane ship's babe.

[JadziaKathryn]

^ Don't forget "resident sexpot."

[Rigil Kent]

Ah. How could I forget "ship's babe"?

[evcake]

Don't we already have one?