Payment MU story thread

[blacknblue]

Howdy.

[Chris]

I can't say that I'm as big of a romantic as Distracted is, but I do hope they start to have some affection for each other. Even if it's the sick, twisted, and bizarre MU version of affection. I'll take whatever I can get BnB.

Loved Part 5.

[evcake]

To me, the bond between MU TnT is not as strong as the one between RU TnT. At least not at first.

Look at the episode. Trip asks T'Pol to help him get out of the engineering area, where he is being slowly killed by radiation exposure. She replies, "Why should I do that?" He points out that he helped her out with her Pon Farr and she reacts with anger that he would dare to bring that up and throw it in her face.

Sound like affection to you?

She didn't seem that mad - not for an MU character, anyway.

[Dinah]

This whole MU discussion is very interesting. When they wrote Mirror, Mirror in the late 1960s, it was probably intended as a Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde sort of thing: RU = good, MU = bad. But what if we took things back to the ancient world. If the world had embraced some of the leaders of the Roman Empires such as Caligula & Nero, and a cult of followers grew up around them instead of Christ, Mohammed, Buddha, etc., wouldn't we have many of the same qualities we see in the MU? Instead of being taught to strive to live a virtuous life, children would be taught to worship power and conquest. Perversions would be an acceptable way of life. Empress Sato would fit right in with Agrippina, Livia and some of the other Roman women.

With that said, such a world would not preclude finer feelings, but they would not be taught or encouraged. The weak -- those who don't learn how to play the game -- would be culled from the population or forced into reduced circumstances. But that doesn't mean that two people couldn't fall in love. It doesn't mean that a person couldn't do something noble or charitable. It doesn't mean that a person or a group of people wouldn't be inclined to rebel against the violence and waste.

So what do you think?

[CX]

I've always seen the Terran Empire as a future version of the Roman Empire under one of the barbaric emperors. Assasinations in the senate and attempts on the Emperor's life were common, though in the legions they would be punished quite severely and one could not epect to advance that way.

[blacknblue]

Yeah. That was not one of Roddenberry's brighter ideas. No military, or quasi-military organization could possibly function without trust between the ranks. MU Starfleet could not possibly operate with assassination as a valid career advancement path.

[dialee]

Yes, I agree in part and disagree in part with what everyone says however, I mostly agree with Distracted and it was nicely stated in the story by Plumtuckered in Starting at Zero when the evil Wilhelm concluded that Trip and T'Pol and their love was one of the constants in the multiverse.

While you keep us to the edge of our seats with the uncertainty of Trip's motivations and a much stronger character, we (at least I) as (a) TripT'Polers, ultimately want a happily ever after.

I am also following your story avidly because you are a good writer.

[evcake]

their love was one of the constants in the multiverse.

However twisted.

[vero3110]

This whole MU discussion is very interesting. When they wrote Mirror, Mirror in the late 1960s, it was probably intended as a Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde sort of thing: RU = good, MU = bad. But what if we took things back to the ancient world. If the world had embraced some of the leaders of the Roman Empires such as Caligula & Nero, and a cult of followers grew up around them instead of Christ, Mohammed, Buddha, etc., wouldn't we have many of the same qualities we see in the MU? Instead of being taught to strive to live a virtuous life, children would be taught to worship power and conquest. Perversions would be an acceptable way of life. Empress Sato would fit right in with Agrippina, Livia and some of the other Roman women.

With that said, such a world would not preclude finer feelings, but they would not be taught or encouraged. The weak -- those who don't learn how to play the game -- would be culled from the population or forced into reduced circumstances. But that doesn't mean that two people couldn't fall in love. It doesn't mean that a person couldn't do something noble or charitable. It doesn't mean that a person or a group of people wouldn't be inclined to rebel against the violence and waste.

So what do you think?

I just finished reading the last update on Payment, great story by the way.
And as I commented on the story I've wondered how the MU got "evil" since I watched In a mirror darkly.
Was it because of cultural/philosophical differences with the RU? or was it because of biological/genetical differences? or maybe both.
I tend to think it's because of the cultural/philosophical differences, so the MU humans would be basically the same as the RU people but they would be living under a different social/moral/historical environment that predispose their actions and behaviour to be "evil" by our standards. (Kind of a Lord of the Flies development, but through centuries or decades at least).

I basically agree with Dinah's idea, so is there anything in cannon about human dissidents on the MU?
I've only watched the Enterprise MU episodes so far so I don´t know.

Vero

[evcake]

I wonder when they picked up the Tantalus Field. Is this the same MU as TOS?

[blacknblue]

I basically agree with Dinah's idea, so is there anything in cannon about human dissidents on the MU?
I've only watched the Enterprise MU episodes so far so I don´t know.

Vero

Actually there is, sort of. In DS9 we find out that RU Kirk's interaction with MU Spock caused long lasting repercussions. MU Spock was persuaded that continuing the Terran empires policy of conquest and terror was illogical, so he took over as emperor and revamped the empire more along the lines of Vulcan ideals of logic and order.

Which weakened the Terran empire to the point that the Klingons and the Cardassians promptly moved in and conquered the Humans and Vulcans. So much for the inherent superiority of the Vulcan way of peace and logic. At least in the MU.

[Reanok]

I just finished reading part 5 of your story and wondered why Rostov has a grudge against T'Pol.It looks like T'Pol is going to learn the hard way that she was mistaken about Trip not knowing things about Vulcans.Their relationship is pretty twisted all right. Great story so far keep it up BnB.

[blacknblue]

I just finished reading part 5 of your story and wondered why Rostov has a grudge against T'Pol.

Um... she tried to kill him? And his friends?

[hth2k]

Consider if you will being thrown into the possession of a bunch of Nazis in the WWII era. Say you are Polish or Czech, etc. Your homeland is over run and mostly destroyed. England has fallen, and America didn't enter the war. Where are you gonna go? What are you gonna do? You could make sililar analogies with Joe Stalin's Russia or Mao's China. For the typical pesant there are very few options outside of truing tosurvive within the system controlling your destiny. You try to maintain hope that someday somehow there will be a way. It may not happen in any given persons life time. As long as you are alive there may be some chance to make some change, some difference. Perhaps small and insignifigant in the grand scheme of things but better than nothing. So you appear to give in, maybe even do give in. But deep down the spark of hope refuses to die so you wait. When that spark dies you are truely broken.

Consider from another side you have an attraction to something that you know may kill you. It may be an adrenalin rush from speed or danger. You might get a thrill out of starting fights or combat. You could find excitement in extreme sports. One may get a kick out of seducing gangsters girls or simply having affairs with married women or men as is your wont. Wither can get you killed. Being a jewell thief may be quite thrilling at times. There are people that have attractions that they do not understand or may well understand and persue anyway. Perhaps your thrill is getting close to dangerous wild creatures. Sometimes you are merely a moth flitting about a flame, drawn in, feeling the heat and withdrawing until the light bekons again. It isn't rational but it is certainly real.

Trip sees T'Pol as his flame. She has useful qualities but he has been scorched already. How can she ever earn his trust? Difficult and time consuming I would think. He knows she controls her emotions and probably thinks her incapible of returning affection or fully capible of ignoring it should it prove inconvenient for her. He knows she is highly intelligent and quite capible of anything. He fully believes she would kill him without hesitation should she have reason to do so. So he indeed feels like he is sleeping with a cobra.

Broken trust is not easily reestablished. It usually takes years of extraordinarily effort on the part of both parties. There needs to be some compelling reason for them to do so. It is far easier and far less risky and less trouble to simply write off the other party. If they are in forced proximity usually animosity results and evolves into a form of tolerance at a minimal level if there is no further provocations on either side. Resentment and hostility are not far beneath the surface.

You show this quite well so far.

I would think T'Pol's curious nature and logical mind to be of some use here. She would be confused and likely ask Tucker about his motivations. He would likely not understand them himself considering the situation you draw. Eventually they will learn to communicate. THis is the likely key to any progress. There still must be a compelling reason for them to work together long term with potential benefits for both clearly apparent separate from any potential relationship. Any relationship has been destroyed at least short term but not necessarily long term.

I think the Tucker you paint can potentially understand T'Pol's motivations as he learns more about her life, her experiences and another perspective of the Empire from one of the vanquished. Understanding her and what drives her is his key.

The same applies to T'Pol. Learning who TIcker really is and what drives him. She has been rash in her previous extimations of him and has had this shoved right in her face. Apparently this was the only way she could percieve it due to her own prejudices. The bond will help her learn more quickly about Tucker and his motivations. She however has a hugely difficult series of tasks to accomplish to rebuild the trust she destroyed. THis assumes she percieves that she wants/need to do so.

Just a few thoughts.

HtH


Odds of winning availible upon request. Send three boxtops, PoP, and SASE to the adress on the box.

[blacknblue]

NICE analysis. Thank you. That is useful. And actually dead on target for what I was trying to convey. I feel gratified that I was able to present it in a semi-coherent fashion, at least to where somebody could pick up on it.

Tucker and T'Pol have several reasons to cooperate. They need each other, although neither of them like it. T'Pol has pee'd in her chili when it comes to her own people. Consider that RU T'Pol was something of a rebel, willing to defy the High Command and even her own people's customs and traditions in order to do something that she wanted, or that she felt served the greater good. Like not going home to marry Koss in the first season. Or defying the High Command to go with ENT into the expanse. Or even giving the scans to Shran of the listening post at P'Jem (granted in that case she was obeying her commanding officer, but she could have thrown the scanner into the pit and screamed across the big open area at the Vulcan officer we saw on the initial shot).

I figured that MU T'Pol might be the same way. But now that her attempt at killing the Humans and taking over Defiant has failed, she is in a tight spot. I am guessing that even in MU, the Vulcan obsession with duty to family might still hold true. To me, that aspect of their culture would be neither good nor evil. Rather I see it as a necessary response to the realities of survival in a harsh environment. In which case, by deliberately betraying her own bonded mate to his enemies, I postulate that she has violated one of the most basic tenets of Vulcan society.

Outlaw. Outcast. Bad no no. Plus the whole issue of bonding him in the first place, although she might get out of that by claiming it was an accident. But once they were bonded and she knew it, I doubt any Vulcan would accept any excuse for deliberate betrayal of one's own bondmate, regardless of political affiliation.

So T'Pol is stuck as soon as what she did gets back to Vulcan. Even if she gets loose, where is she gonna go? Plus there is the issue of Pon Farr. I am one of those people who approach the idea of female Pon Farr from a rational, scientific basis rather than an emotional knee jerk rejection of the idea. Scientifically, it makes far more sense for he female to go into estrus than it does for the male. Vulcans are close enough to Terran life forms to allow for interbreeding, so they can't be very different from us. On Earth, invariably either the female goes into estrus or both male and female go into estrus as the same time.

Ergo, based on scientific principles, I conclude that Vulcan females go into Pon Farr. I have seen no arguments to the contrary that are not based solely on someone's personal emotional distaste for the idea. I am going with logic instead.

Therefore, sooner or later T'Pol is going to need Tucker to keep her alive when the Pon Farr hits again.

Meanwhile Tucker has a problem. It may not be canon, but since the Orion pheromones didn't affect him I suspect that Human pheromones might not effect him either. I am going on the idea that Tucker can't get horny for anyone but T'Pol. Picture his frustration?

He also has a job to do analyzing and reverse engineering Defiant. Many parts of which (based on TOS) were probably designed by Vulcans. He could use T'Pol's help.

Plus, if she dies, he's dead. If he dies, she's dead because of that collar.

They are stuck. They have no choice. But they don't have to like it.