I have a doubt.

[Asso]

Elessar wrote:
Are you a doctor? Why is the elimination of animal proteins potentially dangerous? And there are plenty of already-existing alternative sources of protein: soy. I've never had it myself, but there's tons of it to go around. Something like 2/3 of the world population survive on rice, soy and fish and never eat beef, pork or much poultry, like the Western world consumes.

Well, yes, I am a doctor and I support the Mediterranean diet, which is rich in fruits and vegetables and includes the meat. This diet, recommended by OMS) is the basis of the Mediterranean countries nutrition and I should say that in Italy the median age is the longest in the world. However I do not want to provoke polemics. It is not my intention (even if, wickedly, I ask: but the fish? and the plants? Aren't the plants living creatures? And the eggs?)

And TSara wrote:
It is possible to get all the nutrients your body needs...you just might have to work a bit harder at it. Just because someone is a Veggie, doesn't mean they can't follow a balanced diet.

I haven't the slightest intention of asserting the vegetarians can't follow a balanced diet.
However it is not easy and, look out, precisely because of that, if you are making that, even more it involves an ethical choice, about which I do not discuss. Nevertheless, if that is quite true, well, I think Vulcans are vegetarians by ethical choice, even if the Linda and evcake's hypothesis are very attractive. On this subject, taking again the discussion on a lighter tone, I quote Linda:
It may be canon that Vulcans eat fish or crustations. In one TNG episode, I think Dr. Crusher wanted to make Picard a meal consisting of Vulcan molusks. Also I am wondering like Mitchell that if the planet Vulcan, being mostly desert and not having a large variety of food sources, the people would eat just about anything digestable. Could Vulcan discipline make a whole planet go vegetarian? I wonder. Perhaps in addition to a moral value against killing, they were trying to eat lower on the food chain to have enough food for everyone? I had an idea in one of my stories that the polar regions on Vulcan might be cooler and a good grain growing area.

Distracted proposed in one of her stories that canyons with water sources and more protected from the intensity of the sun might be a good crop growing area. So maybe the Vulcans could produce a large quantity of vegetable foods by adapting to their planet's limitations? Therefore, it was more necessity than moral conviction that made Vulcans become vegetarian.

Then there there is the possibility that Vulcan's colony worlds could be breadbaskets for the home world. And I will bet there was a brisk trade in foods from Earth sent to Vulcan. All that 'mentoring' of our world would not just be out of unconditional benevolence, especially considering the attitudes of the Vulcan High Command with V'Las in charge.

Wonderful! I wait for your ideas have a development.

[blacknblue]

I diffidently point out that eggs are animal protein. I also point out that dairy products are animal protein. Therefore, anyone who consumes eggs and/or dairy products is consuming animal protein and is not, by definition, a pure vegetarian but rather an omnivore like the rest of us.

And of course fish, crustaceans, mollusks, and any other kind of sea creature besides plants also count as animals, even the brainless ones.

Not that I care. I like red meat. I shamelessly admit that I have killed and butchered my own venison, pork, beef, squirrel, rabbit, chicken (oh lord, the chickens I have murdered ) and fishies by the score. And I will do it again if I get the chance. I even kill things that I do not intend to eat, like mosquitoes, and rattlesnakes, and copperheads, and flies, and ticks, and wasps, and other multi-legged creatures. I think vegetarians are missing out on some of life's greatest pleasures. Nothign tastes better than sinking your teeth into a chunk of animal flesh that went into the pan still warm from the kill.

But to each their own.

[Asso]

I diffidently point out that eggs are animal protein. I also point out that dairy products are animal protein. Therefore, anyone who consumes eggs and/or dairy products is consuming animal protein and is not, by definition, a pure vegetarian but rather an omnivore like the rest of us.

And of course fish, crustaceans, mollusks, and any other kind of sea creature besides plants also count as animals, even the brainless ones.

Yeah...

[CX]

If Vegetarianism is so healthy, why do so many of them looks like they're frail and sick?

[Elessar]

I would say you haven't met enough vegetarians, OR, maybe you've just had a bad run of luck meeting em, heh, because out of all the vegetarians I've known, almost all of them were women, two of whom were straight Vegans, and they were both excrutiatingly hot and not just skin-and-bones. Plus the other vegetarian women I've known have been just fine on body weight.

I think "not eating enough" is what makes people look frail and sick, regardless of whether it's meat or non-meat. In general the fat-content of soy and other protein-alternatives IS lower than that of animal meat, so if someone is already predisposed to a fast metabolism and being thin, if they stopped eating meat, they might have to be careful not to let their body weight drop too far, but I don't think that's a sign that eating fattier food (i.e., animal meat) is healthier for you.

I diffidently point out that eggs are animal protein. I also point out that dairy products are animal protein. Therefore, anyone who consumes eggs and/or dairy products is consuming animal protein and is not, by definition, a pure vegetarian but rather an omnivore like the rest of us.

And of course fish, crustaceans, mollusks, and any other kind of sea creature besides plants also count as animals, even the brainless ones.

Not that I care. I like red meat. I shamelessly admit that I have killed and butchered my own venison, pork, beef, squirrel, rabbit, chicken (oh lord, the chickens I have murdered ) and fishies by the score. And I will do it again if I get the chance. I even kill things that I do not intend to eat, like mosquitoes, and rattlesnakes, and copperheads, and flies, and ticks, and wasps, and other multi-legged creatures. I think vegetarians are missing out on some of life's greatest pleasures. Nothign tastes better than sinking your teeth into a chunk of animal flesh that went into the pan still warm from the kill.

But to each their own.

I agree. I'm just arguing that because I think they TASTE better and that I personally choose not to give them up, I do honestly believe that a non-animal meat diet is healthier if you can sustain an alterative protein source.

There probably ARE benefits to the other nutrients we recieve from animal meat OTHER than just protein, but there are also offsetting negatives like cholesterol and trans fats. Plus even though it isn't implicit in the meat itself, in the United States, if you eat meat, you are more than likely eating meat that's cooked in grease, so that's an additionally unhealthy consequence of eating meat, at least in the United States. If you just buy beef, pork or poultry and BBQ it, that's another matter.

By the way, I pointed out that vegetarianism is often chosen for dietary reasons and not religious/moral, but I've known a few girls (the 103 lb cheerleader) who just plain don't LIKE meat. And refrain from the jokes!

But you're right... and that's what makes Vegans so hardcore about it, they won't eat anything animal-related. I knew a girl who wouldn't chew most kinds of gum because it had a preservative in it made from horse-hooves.

But yeah, I mean to each their own, I just don't think it's accurate to say that it isn't possible to eat a healthy diet without animal meat. I think that's a mix of old wives' tales and propaganda from meat producers.

[Asso]

But yeah, I mean to each their own, I just don't think it's accurate to say that it isn't possible to eat a healthy diet without animal meat. I think that's a mix of old wives' tales and propaganda from meat producers.

Perhaps it is the case you say:
The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

[TSara]

I would say you haven't met enough vegetarians, OR, maybe you've just had a bad run of luck meeting em, heh, because out of all the vegetarians I've known, almost all of them were women, two of whom were straight Vegans, and they were both excrutiatingly hot and not just skin-and-bones. Plus the other vegetarian women I've known have been just fine on body weight......

You've met me....DID I look sickly to you?

Nope...and I'm a vegetarian.

But yeah, I mean to each their own, I just don't think it's accurate to say that it isn't possible to eat a healthy diet without animal meat. I think that's a mix of old wives' tales and propaganda from meat producers.

Agreed.

[CX]

You've met me....DID I look sickly to you?

You could be the exception and not the rule. I've met plenty and they tend to be scrawny and pale.

I think that's a mix of old wives' tales and propaganda from meat producers.

You don't want to go there.

[Asso]

Now you be able to touch by means of your hands: this is almost a slight quarrel.
So, why authors wanted Vulcans are vegetarians?

[CX]

Probably just to flesh out their culture a little. Like I said before, I'm sure then the Vulcans could give you all these logical reasons behind it, but when it comes down to it, it's really because of emotional reasons, be it an affinity for life, or because they consider themselves above that because all the other emotional, savage species ate meat. Kind of like the Romans holding themselves up on a self-proclamed pedistal and considering everyone else "barbarians".

[Asso]

Well said!
Agreed!
One could do with this stuff one FIC.

[Elessar]

I disagree. To state it that way means to fundamentally assume they are incorrect (the Vulcans' belief of veg'ism) when I believe the writers are trying to make the point that this is 150 years in the future (in Ent) or 250 years (in TOS), or 350 years (in TNG), and that maybe they know something we don't know that explains why they don't eat natural meat.

If, before the popularization of the idea of the existence of sexually transmitted diseases, we ('we' as in the culture of that time period) were to encounter another culture, an alien culture, who revolted in a similar way at 'our' cavalier attitude towards casual sexual encounters (I mean the 'we' of that time period), and this 'more advanced' alien race knew about STDs, they would probably think we were barbaric and primitive and retarded. See, what your statement is not concieving of, is the possibility that such information exists which the Vulcans have, and that we don't, or that we don't agree with or don't want to listen to. I'm not stating a personal opinion that there exists out there such information, I'm saying objectively, that I believe the intention of the writers who came up with this Vulcan vegetarianism was either to A. suggest the possibility of such information, or B. to advocate vegetarianism based on current information. Does that help to explain what I mean?

[Distracted]

For humans, meat is not the only way to get your protein. Soy, nuts, and the combination of grains and legumes in the same meal (rice and beans for example) are all complete proteins. A lacto-ovo-vegetarian diet is actually healthier than a diet higher in animal fat (which generally goes along with the protein), especially for those with a hereditary tendency toward elevated cholesterol. It's virtually impossible, though, for a human to get adequate B-complex vitamins without milk, cheese, and/or eggs unless they take supplements. If you're trying to avoid supplements and get all of your nutrients from food alone, some animal derived products are necessary, but you don't have to kill anything to get them.

Now, as far as Vulcans go, anything goes. They're ALIENS. We can hypothesize anything we want to. Personally, I prefer to think of the vegetarianism as a practical response to the virtual extinction of all animal life on their planet after centuries of war, and an ethical response to the need to STOP KILLING everything. If Vulcans don't need B complex vitamins then maybe they don't need any animal derived products at all.

[Emberchyld]

You've met me....DID I look sickly to you?

You could be the exception and not the rule. I've met plenty and they tend to be scrawny and pale.

CX, maybe you just happened to meet one of my old schoolmates. I grew up with a lot of girls(and guys) who would not eat meat for cultural/religious reasons... but they replaced it with healthy food and were fine. On the other hand, one girl I knew became vegetarian for personal reasons and replaced meat with candy bars, french fries, and lettuce. Guess who looked sickly?

I eat meat on the weekends(I'm Portuguese... i have no choice. If I stopped, my family would tie me down and force feed me chorico, pork, and codfish), but during the week I usually don't (except for the random, poor tuna fish) because I'm really not very big on meat, especially red meat. I just try to make sure that I get enough protein and iron in other forms --Distracted made a great list. And I don't think I look unhealthy (minus a few pounds here and there because I love chocolate more than Deanna Troi).

I agree with everyone here who believes that this is probably a ethical/cultural decision on Vulcans' part. And, I wonder... as touch telepaths, is it possible for them to feel the animals' pain or fear (no matter how primitive that pain or fear may be, I have seen fear in a rabbit's eyes right before it was killed... it might not have known what was going on, but it wasn't happy)? Could that have an influence in their choice to abstain?

[Elessar]

Probably

Anyone ever see Powder?